Episode 9: Anna Hollinrake

 [music]

[00:00:24] Ash: Welcome to All Inclusive, a podcast about game development and the diverse people who make it. My name is Ash and I'm an environment artist in North Carolina, USA.

[00:00:33] Jasmin: My name is Jasmin. I'm an environment artist from Cologne, Germany.

[00:00:38] Ash: Today's special guest is Anna Hollinrake, and they are a principal artist at Mediatonic. Thank you for coming on today.

[00:00:45] Anna Hollinrake: Thank you for having me. It's very exciting.

[00:00:50] Ash: This is another one of those guests where it's like I asked you about this months ago and I was like, "Man, they're so busy, there's no way they're going to see this DM." Immediately responds to my DM, [laughs] just like, "Yes, let's do it." I'm like, "Oh my God, thank you so much," and then months pass, and I'm like. "I hope they still want to do it." Sheepishly returns your DMs.

[00:01:16] Anna: Let's be real here. I know that if I don't respond to a DM immediately, like within 30 seconds, it will take me three months.

[00:01:26] Ash: True.

[laughter]

[00:01:28] Anna: You know when people are like, "Oh, be chill in messages. Don't reply immediately." I'm like, "I will forget. It will fall out of my brain. It will be gone."

[laughter]

[00:01:38] Anna: Also it was very exciting.

[00:01:40] Ash: Oh, yes. I'm glad you were excited to hear it.

[00:01:49] Jasmin: Just to get slowly into our topics, we always ask our guest, but specifically in your case, I'm super interested to hear this as well, how did you get into the game-ops initially? Could you just walk us down your whole path from even before you went into education to where you are now, how that came about and what happened, basically?

[00:02:12] Anna: Yes, for sure. I never initially was like, "I'm going to be an artist." I was obsessed with being a doctor and a journalist as a child. I played a lot of pet sims, like Catz and Dogz [laughs] and was just really into them, but I just liked making stuff as a kid. I would write a lot. I also wanted to write novels and that kind of thing, but I drew a lot of comics and I just liked making things. I kind of lived in my own head.

Then I went to secondary school at 11 and I got very into anime. I found a GeoCities website that captivated me with just these pencil drawings of manga characters. I would just go back to it constantly and just obsess over how beautiful they were. I was also very into tech and just being on the computer. Me and my brother were pretty close in age, we would just fight to the death about getting onto the computer and playing games on there and just making stuff. I always really liked just creativity and making things and being on something techy as a whole.

Then when I got very into my anime and manga phase, my dad's a guitar teacher and as far as I understand it, one of his friends wanted his son to have guitar lessons. He was an IT kind of person. They've had an agreement that this guy would teach me about IT, if my dad would teach his son guitar. I would have just lessons on HTML and CSS. Also, there was this Paint Shop Pro 9 "How to draw a Dragon" tutorial, and I was just captivated. [laughs] I was going through a very intense dragon phase at the time. I don't know if you've read the books, Eragon, The Inheritance Cycle, but I was consumed by them. I've run to roleplay forums about those.

[laughter]

It was an intense love. Anyway, I just became utterly consumed by digital art because of that. I got really into DeviantArt. I got a really rubbish tablet that barely had pressure sensitivity and I found a copy of openCanvas and just poured my life into that. Then roughly around the time I was maybe 15 or 16, I'd spent enough time in that space to have this light bulb moment when I was playing Fable II, I think it was. One of the loading screens is basically the illustrations that I was seeing on deviant high. I was like, "Oh my God, people actually make this stuff quite well." [chuckles] Because of that, I started to focus more on concept art and digital painting, illustration and really digging into that.

I did Art at A level. It was nice. I got a really wonderful opportunity to do more digital painting on actually functional tech, just because there was like a walk-on tablet and my Art teacher just let me borrow it because no one else was going near it. I just obsessively painted. Then I did a foundation art course for a year. It was a nightmare. It was in Fine Art. I bounced off of that. [laughs] I'm glad I did it because I know it's still a dance, but I ended up studying [unintelligible 00:06:11] at De Montfort University in Leicester. That was brilliant to do.

I had the first year, which was called bootcamp where it was a mixture of 2D and 3D, but in terms of 2D, they would just March you down to the canal and make you draw one point perspective over and over and over again until you got it. I should clarify. I haven't actually said what I do in terms of a principal artist. I do a lot of concept art, 3D.

[laughter]

Not so much 3D anymore, leading more towards the concept art and art direction side of things, but that broad brush strokes approach where on my university course, we learned art fundamentals. We learned 3D modeling, working in Engine, some VFX, loads of life drawing. This focused, but still very holistic approach meant that I just had a good foundation, a lot of stuff.

Then I graduated. I freelanced for a bit, and then I got my first job about eight months. I think it was a placement. It was like six to eight months, I think after I graduated. It's not a particularly round the houses route. I suppose once I kind of saw DMU as the place that I wanted to go, I guess I got very, very focused. I just got really into digital painting, man. Really obsessed with digital painting. [laughs]

[00:07:55] Jasmin: I'm wondering because you said it was like eight months after you finished your course, how difficult was it for you to go from the university to finding your first job? Did you have support throughout your university for that? Or did you just build up your own network in that time, or did you work on your portfolio afterwards? What was that phase like for you?

[00:08:18] Anna: It was interesting. I had some support, I wasn't able to move home, so I couldn't really just sit and focus on my portfolio. It was actually to be honest, like the jump between graduating and getting my first job was probably the most stressed I've been in my entire life. That was just largely because I was quietly freelancing then found out that we were getting evicted.

[00:08:48] Jasmin: Oh God.

[00:08:49] Anna: Then I had to take on a two and a half months data entry temp job. Then a week into that, I got the biggest freelance contract I'd ever got, which was like illustrating a whole ball game. My day-to-day was essentially waking up cycling to my office job, thumbnailing cards for this ball game on the breakfast break, going to house viewings to find somewhere to live on my lunch break, cycling home, and then rendering up those cards until what 1:00 AM.

It was incredibly stupid. It was terrible for my hands. I was flipping through thousands of sheets of paper a day and it just racked my thumb. I started having to do all of my office admin work with my left hand and just writing and everything back because I had to basically preserve my right hand as much as possible. It wasn't healthy. I wouldn't recommend it. I thankfully found somewhere to live and then left that job and became a waitress at a burger restaurant instead. Thankfully after probably about four months of that, I found my first job, so stressful. [chuckles]

[00:10:00] Jasmin: For sure, sounds insane. You managed to juggle all that and then get at least likely the outcome of it that was good is but still a very dangerous line to work.

[00:10:15] Anna: Yes, I worked way too much and not in a very smart way either. I suppose we might talk about this later but, yes, a lot of my university experience was me injuring myself.

[00:10:33] Jasmin: Oh.

[00:10:33] Ash: Oh, no.

[00:10:33] Anna: Just from overwork. It wasn't the best approach where I would be so consumed by I need to be working and studying all the time. I just ended up giving myself RSI and [unintelligible 00:10:52].

[00:10:53] Jasmin: Oh, my God.

[00:10:54] Ash: That's what I'm afraid of. After I get my first paycheck from my gig for this thing that I'm doing, I'm hoping to get vertical miles like ergonomic miles because I'm very, very afraid of things like that and I feel like any preventative things we could do.

[00:11:13] Anna: Yes, for sure.

[00:11:14] Ash: Our bodies is probably the-- I don't know if you've ever tried-- This is totally a tangent. Some people will do everything with their tablet instead because they find that that's more ergonomic. People who will--

[00:11:29] Anna: I guess I've tried that. Yes, I did have to do that in second and third year I just completely transferred over to the tablet. I was concepting with my left hand, I can use the mouse completely left-handedly as well, so I just basically save my right hand to drawing alone. This might be a little bit of an overshare but I still brush my teeth lefthanded because I just transferred everything over. You know that little fluffy skin that you have in your mouth that connects the inside of your lips to your teeth?

[00:12:03] Ash: Yes.

[00:12:05] Anna: Mine is no longer attached because I-

[00:12:07] Ash: Oh, because of you using your other hand?

[00:12:08] Anna: -hit it so many times.

[00:12:10] Ash: Oh, man.

[00:12:11] Jasmin: Well, I didn't know it's possible.

[00:12:14] Anna: It was a painful experience. So do hand stretches so that you don't have to hurt yourself in that way. I realize this an audio podcast but obviously sad if you're just kind of almost like putting your hands in a prayer position in front of you and just gently pressing down and then splaying the [unintelligible 00:12:35] and gently bouncing that. Then if you almost rotate your hands down, yes, that's [unintelligible 00:12:44].

[laughter]

[00:12:51] Jasmin: That's a good sign.

[00:12:54] Ash: It's a reminder for people listening to do your hand stretches, do your back stretches.

[00:12:57] Anna: Do your hand stretches.

[00:12:59] Jasmin: Please do.

[00:12:59] Anna: For sure.

[00:13:00] Ash: And drink some water.

[00:13:02] Anna: Yes, drink some water and also I didn't swear but I thought massage didn't really do anything and then I woke up one morning back when I was working on the [unintelligible 00:13:12] and I woke up one morning and I just couldn't turn my head to the right. It didn't just hurt so much and I've never had anything like it and I was winging about it in the office breakroom. The person who ran all of the HR was also a trained physiotherapist and she was just like, "Oh, just turn around, it's fine." Then she put my arm behind my back and dug around under my shoulder blade and it was just gone. I was like, "What?"

[laughter]

[00:13:43] Jasmin: We need one in every office.

[00:13:45] Anna: Yes, honestly, but ever since then, if I do have some issue, I'll try and get a massage done because I tend to find I just hold a lot of muscle tension in my shoulders.

[00:13:56] Ash: Oh, absolutely.

[00:13:57] Anna: It all just sends down your arms.

[00:14:01] Ash: Yes, I feel tense in my shoulders up here all the time because it's just the computer thing like when you get all up here and then you have to [crosstalk]. Yes, sometimes I have to be really mindful like, "Oh, my shoulders are to my ears, put them back.

[00:14:16] Anna: Yes, absolutely. With the transferral over to my new department combined with getting my second COVID jab, I ended up just wittily hunched and then muscle pain, so I was just tensed and stressed and I was, "Oh, my God." I couldn't use my upper body at all.

[laughter]

[00:14:44] Jasmin: Big [unintelligible 00:14:44].

[laughter]

[00:14:50] Anna: Yes, otherwise, you'll end up with weird injuries and skills that you really don't or shouldn't need.

[00:14:58] Jasmin: Oh, well, it's still a good skill. I think it's super impressive. I can't imagine even doing everything on my left hand. It's so useless. [crosstalk]

[00:15:09] Anna: I'd like to paint more with my left hand because making is way freer, obviously, because I'm uncoordinated. I did some sketches and it was a lot more kind of fluid. But I'm also lazy, so I don't want to [unintelligible 00:15:22] that much.

[00:15:27] Jasmin: I was just wondering about, just going slightly back and then we can move on to the next topic. You said your university course was very diverse, like still focused on other very diverse in like teaching you different parts of game out, like even engine work free due to the effects, which I think is really cool. I was wondering how you felt about doing that, even though you knew you want to do the concept, are you open to that? Because I've heard from many students that they get a bit frustrated when they cause almost everything, but it can be super helpful, I think as well. I wonder what's your take on that.

[00:16:03] Anna: It's difficult because I've absolutely had people reach out to me with these concerns, especially for DMU itself. I was absolutely someone who was pretty grumpy about 3D and to be fair, I don't think that that has entirely shifted for me, even though I've worked as a 3D artist professionally. I don't do it so much anymore, but I was an environment artist for a while.

I think that it's worthwhile doing your research and being realistic about what you're going into. I'm really glad that I had that experience though because I don't think I was a strong enough concept artist to get a job as a concept artist immediately. I also think that having that range of experience has led to me being able to make better decisions in terms of concept art in that direction, just because I'm aware of what is and isn't possible.

I also think it lends itself well for art direction and leadership roles because you actually know what roughly you're talking about, even though I'm aware that my knowledge on PBR, for example, is super outdated because I just haven't had to do it. At least I can speak to some elements of that still, and just being an engine. It is unbelievable how useful it is to feel comfortable just going into unity or going into the unreal and grabbing the things that you need and knowing where to find them and the processes in which they are stored. It is just absolutely vital.

Because I have just done so many things and being so much of a generalist, I think I'm a lot more comfortable moving from space to space and commenting on things that I think would do better, and making everything sit together better. I think that one of the things I do best in is curation and finding something that looks impactful and appealing, but also fulfills the tech briefs and uses them as a springboard and solves problems rather than causes them. I think sometimes this has a bit of a weakness as well because I've just felt like, "We get no triangles." Just because I come from a more of a low poly background in that way but I'm really glad that I have that experience because I don't think I would have as broad awareness of the game dev pipeline if I hadn't learned that.

[00:18:45] Jasmin: Yes, for sure. I think that's what many people may be realized after those stories. Probably like in that time, you get very annoyed and exhausted by having to learn so many different things that don't relate directly to your work. Later on, you get kind of like grateful for knowing at least what's going on in the other fields as well that you don't just sit there and get completely confused on the context of your assets maybe as where it needs to go and all these types of things.

It's been the same with me, like my close to the love animation, which I was really annoyed. But in retrospect, it's still like interesting and kind of useful to know at least, in what context I will need that info. Maybe I have some animators explaining something to me that I'm not completely like staring into the abyss and like having no idea what's going on. You can always find, I guess, some use to it in some ways, not completely useless.

[00:19:42] Ash: I think maybe If anything, if you were to meet in the middle about it, even though I think for people who are in school, it might feel annoying anyways. If there was a way to just like get someone for like basis covered where they're like starting in the section that they want, and then after that, touch a little bit of the other things as it relates to the things that they do maybe I think a lot of people would feel a bit less frustrated because I will never rig. Don't ask me to rig anything, I will leave.

Other things, I don't know, like lighting and stuff. I don't know. Because, because 3D is so frigging hard, it's just stupid hard to where you have so many things that you have to be okay in to make things even look like a thing in addition to artistic principles and stuff like that I think that if we could find a way to help someone feel secure and the basic thing that they need to do to get started and then slowly introduce like, oh, man, you made an environment or whatever, this is how you can light it with a couple of lights and stuff like that rather than being like, okay, so you need to light this in a vacuum or something. Learning things in a vacuum, I think is probably the problem rather learning things as they relate to each other is probably the better way to go about things.

[00:21:10] Anna: This has changed now on the course but I did not like 3D and I just did it because I had to until third year. That was because I actually got to work on something that I liked that visually resonated with me. It was one of those moments where it was my first time, I think. No, it wasn't my first time working in unreal. Actually, it might've been. No, I was in CryEngine before that. I inverted the [unintelligible 00:21:46] final day before submission. As I said the title, the weeping was intense.

[laughter]

It was a lot. Anyway, before that, I was in third year and I made this like rooftop, like Ghibli ask. It was the first instance of me doing witchy stuff. I don't think I've really grown past or out of that sentence if I'm being real with myself. Beforehand, all the projects, well, tuffy us with making literal trash, like the first texture model that we were supposed to do on a first-year was we had to make a wheelie bed. It's not the most inspired. We had to [unintelligible 00:22:42] our own textures as well. You had to go roaming around the streets of Leicester just taking photos of random people's wheelie bins and going on people's backs to take a top-down reference photos and that kind of thing. Then in the second year to introduce us to [unintelligible 00:23:01], we had to make more trash.

[00:23:04] Jasmin: Why?

[00:23:05] Ash: Why trash? What's this trash obsession?

[00:23:10] Anna: I know this has changed. They have actually exciting projects in the first year from the get-go that people could be a little bit more fired up by because my first year it was like make a white van.

[00:23:27] Jasmin: It was the same and very specific cause to me like some random tractor that I've never heard of in my life with the specific model number. I'm like, "I don't care about this."

[00:23:42] Anna: Absolutely. I think when I was able to work in unreal and I was making hand-painted stuff, I'd never done hand-painted stuff before and then I did it and it was just happy chemicals started firing in my brain. I was like, Oh, oh 3D could be enjoyable." I could make a cute little world and I could run up a ladder and I could put little head and detail. Oh my God, I'm in. I can hide puns about weather or books and place them around the scene. Yes. Before that, I was just grumpy and resentful.

[00:24:29] Jasmin: That's not the way to introduce any subject, I think even I don't know, make people just draw random trash on I don't know. There's a time and place for everything. As the first experience, it's weird to do.

[00:24:49] Anna: I think that does somewhat still exist within 2D. At least when I was studying, it was the very kind of-- I think to be fair, I'm not sure this mentality has entirely shifted. The very kind of conceptuality mentality of work 12 hours a day, just keep studying, draw rocks, draw this thing. Material studies are obviously important, but it was very much all-work and no play. [laughs] If you slack off or if you take a day off, then you're a failure. I was just like, "Get outside. Touch grass."

[00:25:28] Ash: Why don't we do this? I think the same thing could apply to literally anything. I think that when you are trying to learn something that's like a big daunting task, like learning how to build little cute machines or whatever, or learning another language, or learning something else, or learning how to play an instrument. If you don't have excitement about the thing that you're learning about, if you're not like, "Oh man, I really like this song. I'm going to learn it on guitar," or whatever, then you can't really get the motivation to do it. Then after that, even if you-- You know how there's that graph thing where it's like the point of diminishing returns or whatever, after hours like seven, working four more hours on this thing really give you back as much as you're probably not. It's like [unintelligible 00:26:20].

[00:26:22] Anna: Go to bed, ultimately. Go have a nap. Go get some nice coffee and have a chat with your friends.

[laughter]

I also think that I forgot how to learn properly as well, which is a weird thing to say. I didn't know how I learned properly. I learned obviously when I'm-- Everyone learns when they're excited about something. My idea of doing studies was just mindlessly copying one thing and transferring it onto my social canvas. I wasn't analyzing anything. I wasn't studying anything. I wasn't saying, "Oh, this brushstroke has an intention."

I was just saying, "Okay, I'm just going to just very closely noodle at an image for ages rather than thinking about what I was doing." I also learn more through doing and action as well. Picking up a material and looking at it and turning it around in my hands and actually thinking about it and its properties and how you would apply certain brushes to reflect that, is much more impactful and will stick in my brain far more than this picture is JPEG of copper on my screen has an orangish tone here. Then it has a light yellow tone here, which was what I was doing for years. I learned very little, very slowly.

[laughter]

Also, I didn't go outside and touch grass. I wish that I'd been smarter about it. Whatever. I got here. If I could've given myself some advice, which I absolutely would not have taken, to be honest, I would have preferred to be more thoughtful about how I approach things. Because when I'm learning anything else, I'll be like, "I'm going to read these resources. I'm going to practice what they tell me to practice." I think because I have so much of a history with art, it's almost like I can't just learn it. I have all of these habits baked in at this point that I'm trying to untangle at the moment.

[00:28:59] Jasmin: It makes sense. I think especially when you get into a habit of doing things a certain way, it's very difficult to break out of that. It's very much more comfortable just to do how you're used to, to learn how you're used to, but when you realize that you're actually not making progress, it's actually not helping you in a way, it's hard to just say, "Okay, I'm going to start from scratch now." Because sometimes that does mean trying to put away that knowledge of how you did stuff before and applying in a different way.

Doing that step can be daunting, but if you then realize that there's a much better way to approach things, actually, it's a good payoff, I think. Even though getting to that point of being brave to do it is difficult. I think that's maybe why people get stuck maybe in this dead-end of doing the same things in the same way, but not seeing any improvement or development in their own work, which can be difficult for yourself as well because you want to learn and you want to grow.

[00:29:57] Anna: Absolutely.

[00:29:59] Jasmin: Obviously, like some payoff from what you put into stuff.

[00:30:04] Anna: For sure. I think I've reached a point where I'm interested in expanding what I know in different ways. I want to get better at drawing plants because everyone likes drawing plants that like soothing. I would definitely like to illustrate them more effectively and understand them, but it's kind of at a point where I don't just want to be sat at my computer, just figuring them out.

I'm taking up gardening. I learned about plugs that way because I trust that I'm able to draw them and render them, but it's more just about forms and certain kinds of leads and increasing my visual library in that way. I don't really want to be sat on Wikipedia looking at pictures of them and you go down to the garden center and then mess around with some soil.

[00:31:07] Ash: Makes sense to me. Totally makes sense.

[00:31:11] Anna: I think maybe it's just because of the situation, I'm just too big [unintelligible 00:31:16].

[00:31:18] Ash: We mention by name, the situation.

[laughter]

[00:31:29] Anna: I don't know about you, but I'm just finding any opportunity to not be at my desk all the time. I don't know. There's more ways than just being sat down on Photoshop to learn about art than just this, I suppose, in my opinion.

[00:31:56] Jasmin: For sure.

[00:31:56] Ash: Which you can throw away, you can completely disagree.

[00:31:59] Anna: I think it totally makes sense. It almost feels like an advanced concept though, because when you start something, if you really want to learn a thing, I think your first knee jerk reaction is that you want to spend as much time with it as possible and you might be trying to think of like what's the right way to do something? What's the right way to learn about something? I think it's easy for you to get the groove of doing something one way. So just doing only studies all the time, rather than just like being organic about it and just living.

Sometimes it feels like also at the same time that like when you are working to get better at something that you can't spend time doing other things, because you should always be trying to work at the thing and do it the right way. It feels often like a conflict because I know a lot of people like artists, once they get started in their careers or whatever, or years later into their careers, seniors, whatever, they often tell people how many do you need to look like actually live life also but like for people who are like starting out, it's like, no, I can't. I sit here with Maya. I can't go out with my friends. It feels like such a conflict.

I think it's really hard to actually make yourself do that. Even though I think I don't know, actually I was going to say that even though it will make you happier, but I don't know, sometimes you are so set in doing something a certain way that doing it another way won't make you happy because it doesn't feel right. It feels like that conflict in your brain still-- because I felt that for sure in the past.

[00:33:52] Ash: I suppose, I'm also coming from having been working in like games or animation for like six years at this point and so I have the luxury to just be mess around with seems like it's a little bit more chill in that way and obviously it still requires a lot of effort and focus to be able to get into this industry and build your skills. I absolutely have skipped out on parties because I just got really obsessed with mechanical joints and how they work like just looking at that. Think if you want to get dim sum with your friends and you feel like you've put a lot of time in, get dim sum with your friends, like get do restorative things. Listen to yourself when you're a bit fried because I think I have a tendency like so many people to just push through.

[laughter]

[00:35:13] Jasmin: Looks away.

[laughter]

[00:35:18] Anna: I think just pay attention to what you're interested in and stop beating yourself up, basically.

[00:35:26] Ash: Oh, I can't wait till we get to because I feel like we're constantly so far even though we're on topic one somehow still [crosstalk] until a later topic, so [crosstalk].

[00:35:39] Anna: Yes, I'm sorry. [laughs]

[00:35:41] Ash: No, it's fine, this is good. We love the organic fields, something I want to like segue into which is not really a segue and more just be like switching topics. I wanted to know about your inspirations for your personal art, what kind of things that you enjoy, what kind of things you pull from, be it weed stuff or [laughs] the hashtag educated artsy enthusiast in certain painters or whoever. I just want to know what inspires you for your personal art specifically rather than-- Because that's different, right?

[00:36:21] Anna: Yes, I guess like everyone in their mom's Studio Ghibli, I'm just putting that one up at the top. That's probably the one that I get my work most referenced to. I don't know if you say Studio Ghibli or Ghibli but I will always say it as Ghibli because I have one person that sends me hate emails every three years because they are very angry that I say it as Ghibli. [laughs]

[00:36:54] Ash: [unintelligible 00:36:54]

[00:36:55] Jasmin: What?

[00:36:56] Anna: No. [laughs]

[00:36:58] Ash: Oh my God.

[00:36:59] Anna: Oh my God, it's hilarious. I need to get them crusted. I need to get one of the phrases cross-stitched onto a pillow or hung on my wall in the bathroom, saying you're a blight on concept art in general of them like-- [laughs]

[00:37:17] Ash: We need our [unintelligible 00:37:17].

[00:37:20] Anna: Anyway, so I think there must have found me on Twitter and I got a very similar email three years later and I checked because I never delete anything and it's the same email and I'm like, this is incredible, that's not the point though. Yes, so I am very inspired by Studio Ghibli and just that warmth and that sense of place, in terms of painters, I'm super inspired by I don't know if I'm pronouncing his name correctly, [unintelligible 00:37:56]. He's a Spanish painter but his work is just glowing. [laughs]

I went to see an exhibition of his at the National Gallery and, oh my God, there's this really depressing painting where it's just a bunch of sick kids trying to swim in the sea, but it's huge and I just stood in front of it for five solid minutes taking it in because it's masterful. The use of light and the vibrancy and all of this light filtering through white sheets and that kind of thing as people are folding sales, I adore it. It's got such a textural quality as well. So I absolutely love his work. I guess the thing that probably inspires the day-to-day painting that I do though, is just people and I really like obviously not really viable at the moment.

One of my favorite things to do when I'd visit somewhere is just see how regular people live there. How they decorate their homes, little details about where they're hanging their clothes out to dry, or the plants that they put outside, their signage, do they called plaque boards? The little signs in the street to advertise for stuff, just people and how they live their lives and the way their architecture is set up and the way the streets are organized, just stuff like that, I just find it magical.

Something that I really want to do more of is painting from photo plates because I find that I'm more inspired by specific places that I've gone to and taken a photo of and how I could turn it into something a little bit more fantastical or put my own story there. That's what I'm probably most interested in now rather than painting something from scratch because I think I'm just maybe a little bored of having to render everything out. I just want to take that shot.

I think maybe Simon Stålenhag works in a somewhat similar way. He uses a lot of photo plates if I remember correctly, but using that as a backdrop to create those worlds because I think I just find people really fascinating. Just going about their day-to-day, the quiet, not mundanity because that's the wrong word. I think it's really beautiful. Just the quiet human moments. That's what I really like. As a result, none of my work is particularly dramatic or I suppose I'm not very good at-- I tried to be a person that painted dragons and explosions, but I think I've made my peace with the fact that most of my work seems to involve fishing. They're just quite--

[00:41:20] Jasmin: We need more fishing. Exactly. Every painting or anything that involves fishing is just [unintelligible 00:41:31].

[00:41:30] Anna: Hell, yes.

[00:41:33] Ash: I also think that that's refreshing because I don't think it's just me who feels this way. I think a bunch of people feel this way, but I am in the group of people where I'm really tired of cynicism and I'm really tired of the world sex and it's the reason why I can't really get into Netflix things like black mirror. I can't, because like, oh, you want to tell me about the world like we know. Like we live here, but what can we do to bring ourselves out of our reality into a place where things are slightly nicer, slightly better, but we can still learn something? I think that goes hand in hand.

That concept goes hand in hand with like Studio Ghibli stuff because Studio Ghibli stuff is very like, "Oh, this is in our world, but it's not. There's something fantastical and magical about it. Something like other-worldly and separate and it feels like warm, but there's still a bittersweetness to it and you still learn things about how the director feels about the environment and things like that and relationships between people and things like that.

I think that's actually really nice and refreshing. I think that's the kind of stuff that I feel I'm attracted to as a person. I don't think that the cynical side of stuff should go away because I don't think that we should be getting rid of certain types of art or whatever opinions, whatever like that, but I think it's also really nice to just have a break. Having art being made that gives people a break, I think is really nice. I will always be vibing in the Candyland personally.

[00:43:33] Anna: Absolutely. I think we need that human connection more than ever. I took myself out to see a film now that cinemas are open in the UK now last night called Nomadland. It's an odd film. I think it won the best director at the Oscars. Oh my God, it's beautiful. If you can see it in the cinema, absolutely do, but it's an odd film because it is a documentary, but not. The main character, she's an actor, but everyone else there is just a regular person. It's a lot of conversations with these people.

Basically, it is about people who having suffered the effects of the financial crisis, are making the best of a really bad hand and essentially just being like, "You know what, I'm taking up to this new life of having a van and being a nomad and living on the road," and having these communities where they're teaching each other the best ways to sort out your van and just the intricacies of that but you have all these conversations with these really decent folks.

I think the overall thesis of the film and what the director spoke about is how she believes that people generally are good and how people want to be decent to each other. Just those interactions were just very warm. Like there wasn't really a huge conflict in the film. It just wandered around like with these beautiful vistas as she's driving around in some like crap stuff does happen but it was like a gentle soul Bob to see people helping each other out. It was really lovely and I think that's the thing I want to foster more of and I think lots of people do.

[00:46:07] Jasmin: It's like nice to have something more tangible in a way like that. As you said, it's a bit different to what we maybe see in everyday life but we can still relate to it a bit better than stuff that's so far away out of our region. It's just so stressful to even think about, it's nice to just sit down and have something like that that doesn't have a need to have a huge conflict that you have to deal with. It's just life happening and maybe one day something interesting happens on the other day, you're just doing every day to day life and that's like beautiful in itself.

You realize that you can find peace in those moments too, that's really good. I wish there was more media. I think I can really recommend on that note this little Netflix documentary it's called True Love. It's about these couples in different regions of the world from Japan to Korea to Brazil. They just show that every day to day life of these elderly couples, they've been together for a very long time. It's beautiful. There's not a really huge topic. Usually, it's just their life, basically. It's also like really sad stuff happening but it's also just very normal mundane stuff.

You just see people doing in their life just working, just seeing their family just sleeping or just doing nothing. It's like very sweet and also cleansing to watch that stuff. I think because we don't get that a lot in many media from like games to films to what we consume on a daily basis. There's always conflict everywhere, so it's nice to have something where it's not as in your face almost like it's more on our level of life where we're living, basically.

[00:47:51] Ash: I think that's something that I'm focusing on like the relationships between people for me is something that has become a lot more like thankful for, I suppose. Like personally because like a lot of the people that I smile as I say this because just thinking about them makes me laugh. The people that I'm closer to now who are like games industry people like who if not for Corona, I would have never spoken to them on discord.

Now because of the situation happening, we're all like in a giant voice chat together and we learn things about each other. We learn things about what people's favorite foods are? What they like and dislike? How they think? We play games together. I think it's such a beautiful thing to be born out of a nice situation. Sometimes I have to remind myself it's scary outside still for a lot of people in this country.

Then also in other countries around the world but there's still good people and I'm meeting these good people and I'm happy to be around these good people. That is like a beautiful thing. It's the human connection that gives your heart the warm fuzzies at the end of the day. The way I describe it is that it makes my heart feel like it's being squeezed. The heart squizzing. Ghibli film is the same thing. It's like the heart squeezing. That's the good stuff, for sure. We're going to stop right there and take a short break. [music]

Before the break, we talked to Anna about how they got into the industry, how the studies were like, and what the main inspirations for the personal artwork was, which was super interesting to hear. Moving now onto our next topic. Looking at the different places you worked at and the different positions you had, it seems like there wore a lot of different hats throughout your career, and I think that's really admirable and super interesting to see. We were wondering, how did that exactly happen? Did you apply for these specific positions that were differing? Or did you want to experience different aspects of an art or concept art-focused drop?

[00:50:56] Anna: It's an interesting one because I feel like I fell into a lot of things. I'm definitely someone that says, yes to stuff, and if it sounds interesting, especially if it scares me a little bit, I just go for it. I haven't actually applied to that many jobs that I've gotten, which is a weird thing to say. I got my first job, it was a placement up in Chester at a tiny little indie studio, that I found out about through one of my classmates who had already found employment and was just, "Oh, talk to Anna, might be able to help," and that's where I found my first role, and that was already straight out of the gate, very generalist.

It was a 2D game, but I was doing concepts, I was assembling things at Engine, I was creating game assets. It started what became, I suppose, my kind of typical thing where I would design something and then take it all the way through to being finished. That was only about a year placement, and around about, 9, 10 months, a job role came up on the Olive White, which was somewhere I'd never thought I'd live. It turns out there's a game studio that smack-bang in the middle in Newport, and they called standards games and they did magic the gathering, the PC and console version.

I've always loved magic gathering, I've always wanted to do a card illustration for them. I was quite excited about the law side of things as well, but the role that was going there was a 2D/3D artist. Honestly, there wasn't a huge amount of 3D, it was more UI, and VFX, and really kind of broad scope of things, like some of the stuff we would do would involve-- Oh no, my upstairs neighbor is doing building work. Okay, let's start again. Sorry. The role that I applied for was a 2D, 3D artists, but a lot of what I did was, VFX. It was UI, it was painting in between sections of illustrations that we got through.

For example, I'd be there painting the background on an image of an artist. I absolutely adored. I'd just be like, "I'm so sorry. I'll do it with justice." Like I've got a piece of JV Jones artwork, and I'm like, "Forgive me." Just tried to fill in blanks. It was actually quite useful because I had to figure out their approach. I'd also like to buy stocks and shares in content aware fill in photoshop because that got me through a lot of problems. It was really broad in that way. There was some concept thing, but by and large, a lot of it was VFX and that kind of thing. Generally, my interest in the law served that quite well too, because I got to high bill details in there as well. Unfortunately, I got made redundant after nine months there.

Thankfully, just across the soul and climax studios in Portsmouth just scooped everyone up, and I started there as a 3D environment artist and I did a lot of Tyler ball texture painting, largely hand-painted stuff, but there was a project there called, Lola and The Giant, and I was just exquisitely annoying. I was like, "I need to work on that. That is so cute, it's exactly the kind of thing I want to make,

let me at it. I was just a pain in the ass. I would just rush through all of my had paid [inaudible 00:55:09] work and just be like, "Hi, can I do some paintings? Look I've made you a windmill. Let me make you things for the love of God." I didn't know Maya either. I remember the first day that I was allowed to do something. I was like, "I'm going to make a concept and kit like a module to create all these concepts very quickly. Then I've got to slam things again."

I don't think I've ever been more productive in my life. Those one or two days [clears throat] Sorry, excuse me, where I was trying to basically let me get at it all. With that, it was amazing because I was able to just chat to the designers and be like, "What's the vibe that you want?" We would have a chat and look at a gray box and I do some paintings and we iterate on that and then I'd build the whole thing. Not the whole thing obviously but the environment and figure out the textures.

I had some amazing oversight from my lead as well. Oh my God, it was honestly too much creative freedom.[laughs] I got the taste for it and now I can't go back. It was just joyful and everyone cared about the project so much. I was able to go from initial concepts all the way through to assembling it in [unintelligible 00:56:35] and set dressing and that thing. It naturally led to me just being a generalist in so much stuff. Then I worked on adventure time part as the [unintelligible 00:56:52]. It was a very similar thing.

I did a lot of concepts and then I was given the opportunity basically in that the land always flooded and you're able to sail around and find different islands. I had quite a lot of creative freedom to just be like, "Oh, there's the ice kingdom and the candy kingdom. Let us design gelato island that sits in the middle or mushroom island." I get to build that as well. I got to build the evil forest there too.

I suppose I just had a lot of opportunities to start from the initial points and then take it all the way through. Then I moved up to London and I got a job as a senior artist at Dream Reality Interactive where I had a more art direction role there. It was the first time that I had a proper team. I worked on this VR game called Arca's Path. It was pretty quick how we had to put it together. It was a lot of figuring out how could we make something that fulfills the themes of the game and also runs and also can come together relatively quickly.

I suppose that's how I learned a lot of like, "Okay, what can we do that will work in the timeframe that we have?" The very practical approach that I have to a lot of this just because I've had to work with a lot of deadlines and a lot of like, "Okay, we don't have a lot of time for iterating on this right now."

Then similarly to how I feel like I got quite a few of those jobs, I just went to an event. I think at that point, I was just a bit worn out. I was quite burnt out. I gave a talk as a changemaker at the Children's Media Conference about how people were burning out of games. We had to find ways to keep people in games. Then someone was like, "Hey, do you want to leave games and work in animation?" I was like, "Yes, let's go."

[laughter]

Like a giant hypocrite than I am. I met someone from Carrot Animation also in London. I was always curious about vis dev and animation as well. I never really had that like moment of, "Oh my God. People make animation," that I'd had with games. I went along and I tried it and very quickly it went from vis dev to, "Oh, would you like to art direct this CBV's TV show?" I was like, "Hell, yes." That was great fun having a team there as well but it was also a lot of talking about storyboards, making sense.

We'd chat about lines and scripts and figure out how we could reuse certain assets and talking about acting space, which is something that I'm really glad I learned about like giving characters room to breathe within a scene. Then someone that I used to work with Climax reached out to me for a Mediatonic. I don't know, it's a weird one.

I think all of the roles that I've gotten, I haven't really applied for in a normal way. I've just been at places and chatted to people but similarly Mediatonic. I went along and they were looking to expand their pitching or create a pitching department really. They wanted me to come on and develop things there. That happened because I was like, "I really like animation, but I do love the tech of games." I think that was something that I was missing.

I don't know. It was probably a moment for me when I was like at Annecy Animation Festival and I was in the queue for a big event. I got tickets to see Frozen 2. I was standing there just watching the E3 Xbox conference on my phone. I was like, "Okay." I think I missed the tech a little bit side of things. I jumped back into work at Mediatonic and that's where I am at now. I don't know if this is really answering your question or it's just a [unintelligible 01:01:45] in everything.

[01:01:46] Jasmine: No.

[01:01:47] Ash: Any answer is good.

[01:01:50] Jasmine: It was more than we hoped for. I think that's so interesting to see how you went like this path and then it was trying to just go to different directions and take on projects that you were just interested in. That connects to this other thing I wanted to ask in relation to that is, was it difficult to swap your mindset from one job to another? You also mentioned that you like to take projects that scare you maybe a bit but still motivated to see how it's going. How do you deal with that? Is it difficult for you or is there any tips you could give people who want to do something similar?

[01:02:30] Anna: I say yes to things. I think there's two kinds of fear. There's the fear that you won't be able to pull it off and there's the fear that you'll absolutely hate it if you get stuck in it. I think that if something feels like the first kind of fear, you should absolutely do it. If it's the second kind of fear but you don't want to admit it to yourself, you probably need to listen to that feeling and not do it. I think I get a lot of the first fear.

The way I operate, I tend to commit to things. A lot of the time I'm like, "Oh God, I don't know how I'm going to do this. I have no idea." It's a lot of internal screaming. It's a lot id like, "Oh no." [laughs] You keep that inside and gradually just figure it out as you go along. I think that's how everyone approaches things. I know that I'm reasonably resourceful and I will probably get there with a little bit of waving around poking things in the dark and spreadsheets.

That tends to be how I solve most problems. I guess I just commit to things and it's my forward-thinking part of my brain is just dragging myself, kicking and screaming to the next bit. Even though I do enjoy it, I just have to commit to it first and then I am in and then I need to do it. I don't know, that's not a very encouraging answer that it's still just like [screams] [laughs]

[01:04:22] Ash: I think it's a very human answer though, because something that feels good is when people admit that-- especially the people who you think are good at things. When those people are like, "Yes, I didn't know what I was doing this whole time," but they still made it work. I think that's really comforting, especially for people who might be going through the same thing where they're put in a situation where it's like, "Oh man, I've never really made stuff like this before, but it's being asked of me. How do I make it work?"

I think that's something that's going to happen maybe a lot. It's happening to me maybe right now where I am doing things where it's like, "Man, I wonder why I got asked to be on this project when the thing that I am working on is nothing like the work I do?" Stuff like that I think happens a lot.

[01:05:11] Jasmine: Yes.

[01:05:12] Anna: I think you forget how much you know until you're actually doing it, like I, on occasion, I feel can explain things quite effectively or have feedback that is useful. I don't tend to remember that until it's presented right in front of me as something that I have to interact with. It's like having that trust that you'll probably be able to figure it out and also just asking for help. Just being okay with saying you don't know something is very useful because otherwise, how will you ever get to learn anything?

Not getting up in your head about not knowing something because there are so many resources out there to figure these things out. During the Kickstarter that I ran last year was a really good crash course in that, because I had no idea how to do a Kickstarter, or produce enamel pins or produce embroideries, or work with clothing companies, or how to ship stuff or how to fill in customs forms.

The sheer number of people who stepped up to reply to my DMS or just be like, "Yes, let's go, let's just have a quick chat on like Google Meet and I'll give you all of my hints and tips." It was unbelievable the sheer number of people that helped out with that. I would not have gotten anywhere close to the level of stuff that I managed to do and the effectiveness that I was able to create things with. That's not a sentence but anyway, it was so helpful having all of these people just give me all of their advice.

Now, I feel so much more prepared to tackle something like that, making an enamel pin is not daunting in any way for me now but beforehand, I was like, "God, I don't understand." There was so much angst when filling out customs forms. Everyone that was around me when I was filling out customs forms and posting them and I was convinced that I was just throwing money into the void. I was just firing out all of these products that would never get anywhere.

I was a nightmare to deal with [laughs] but I got a lot of advice and help. I asked the people in the post office many questions. I got there eventually. Ask questions, keep poking at it, make a lot of to-do lists and color code them in nice colors. You'll probably get there eventually. [laughs]

[01:08:08] Jasmine: I think it's so amazing how you actually have this mindset, not only in terms of your jobs here, but also outside because this project with the enamel pins and clothing. It's outside of your day-to-day work, and you still went for it. I think that's super interesting that you adopted that mindset onto those things as well and just go for it. I think that's really inspiring, actually, that you shouldn't just stay too much in your head and trust yourself a bit as well.

That's where many of us have difficulties with just trust our good feeling and be like, "Okay, if I want to do this, then it's fine."

[01:08:48] Anna: No, I'm really glad that I did it because I like to do a lot of-- I get bored. I just get really bored if I'm not busy. I love projects and I used to do a lot of Comic-Con stuff but obviously, that has been a thing. I like the little shop. I like [unintelligible 01:09:17] to think about packaging and branding and cute little gifts for people. I am a terrible business person. I keep just being like, "Oh, I can do this extra thing to make it even nicer."

It's just fun and seeing people get a thing that you've made is so addictive. It's something that I guess is just a bit different. I have a million and one projects that never go anywhere also, but similarly to what I was saying earlier, I gave myself a deadline, a fixed deadline because I wanted to get the terrapins out for Halloween because it's spooky. I didn't know. I was just in just a swamp of molasses of sadness in September 2020.

Then I got a project [laughs] and it's just my brain was like, "Oh, we're fine now. [laughs] We have a project so everything is okay." I don't know. I like keeping busy, but I think it's just because I get bored really. [laughs] That's why today I went out and purchased a bucket and a scraper and new paint and compost so I could do the patio. I don't know. I guess it's kind of just what I'm like, really. I get itchy feet.

[01:10:59] Jasmine: Just to wrap up this whole live-work section that we touched upon. Since you had many different and interesting positions where you have freedom or also new challenges that you face, is there any type of project or position that you still want to really do in the future someday that's up there in your dream or dream projects that would be great if somebody just suddenly approached you and be like, "Oh, I want to do this with you?" Is that some things still left? [laughs]

[01:11:32] Anna: Ultimately, I still don't feel like I've developed that many games. I still feel like I'm very early on. The kind of thing that I think I'm most interested in is going down a kind of creative director route because I love curating. I love working with teams. I really enjoy the lifting up of everyone and getting everything to fit together nicely. I think as time has gone on, I'm less interested in just pure art.

I like the crossover of design, and how you can filter that into the art and have everything kind of inform each other in that way. I think just making artsy thoughtful games that make people feel at home and being able to creatively direct that is always going to be the dream. I just want to make kind experiences for people. Also, work with teams that care about each other and care very much about the art that they're making and just kind of having fun with it.

Just a nicely scoped beautiful game that makes people feel good. [laughs] I think I'm going to want to make them forever.

[laughter]

That's probably the vibe. I suppose just the kind of creative director route is probably what's most interesting to me in the long term because I don't know, man. Loader and the Giant was too much too early, no one inside of a tiny little VR game that had the opportunity to have a decent chunk of influence on it. I think I'm going to be chasing after that high forever. [laughs]

[01:13:57] Jasmine: That's nice so that you at least know now that you really enjoy that and you're aiming for that also in the future. That's awesome. I'm sure you'll do that. Seeing how driven you are and so many projects you have, I'm sure you're going to get there in no time.

[laughter]

[unintelligible 01:14:15] tomorrow.

[01:14:20] Anna: I'm manifesting it.

[01:14:20] Jasmine: Exactly.

[01:14:21] Ash: For sure. Kind of scooting into our final topic. We can finally talk about mental health stuff properly, in the order that we were supposed to talk about it.

[01:14:39] Anna: Yes. It's been sprinkled throughout our conversation.

[01:14:40] Ash: It has absolutely seasoned the conversation far. I just wanted to talk a little bit about the mental health aspect, anything about whether it's while you're on the job or before you got your first job or things that you wish you would have done that you didn't do. Things that you are doing now that are helping you maintain a good balance, things you wish you would have known sooner. Anything like that? Okay, go.

[laughter]

[01:15:13] Ash: I really assumed that--

[laughter]

[01:15:19] Anna: This is something that I've spoken a lot on in the past. It's where I started in terms of the talks that I've given, just talking about mental health and burnout just because I came from a background of, "Work, work work. You're a failure if you're not working all the time. How dare you take time off? Just look at yourself frolicking in the grass, you lazy bastard." I spent a lot of time putting all of this very negative self-talk into my brain. I think a lot of people did.

They just rejected any dedicated time off and became massively burnt out and anxious and stressed and depressed as a result. I think I wanted to be a bit more open about that. It's definitely increased in people talking about it, but when I was speaking about it back in 2015, I think was my first. No, 2016 was my first talk on it. It didn't feel as quite as visible as it was back then.

At least with the university aspect of it, where people would stand around and just brag about like, "Oh, I only got three hours of sleep last night. Oh, I got four hours of sleep. I'm such a good artist. Check me out. I'm suffering."

[01:17:06] Ash: I hate that.

[01:17:07] Anna: Yes. [chuckles]

[01:17:10] Jasmine: It really makes me angry.

[01:17:12] Anna: Yes, and it's like a badge of honor. People just wandering around being like, "I've had eight cups of coffee today." [chuckles] I'm like, "Congratulations. I'm so sorry about your internal organs." Funny.

[laughter]

[01:17:25] Anna: But people coffee for breakfast. I have coffee for breakfast. I was about to eat coffee grounds just like the [unintelligible 01:17:33]

[01:17:34] Jasmine: Yes, eat the coffee machine.

[01:17:35] Anna: Yes. Just lie under your coffee machine and just hit the espresso shot over and over again. It was all very, "Haha, I'm suffering for my art. Check me out. I'm better than you." Which is super dumb [chuckles], but I absolutely bought into that as previously mentioned. I gave myself many hand injuries because of it. I had a physiotherapist. I nearly fainted when she stuck some needles in my arm. At one point, it was very exciting, but yes, it was not worth it.

[chuckles] It was just not worth it. I wanted to be more vocal about that but even-- obviously that's physical health. In terms of the mental health, the points that I built myself up to, especially in the third year, I remember getting back from the Christmas break for my final term at university. It was finally the final major project time which I built up in my head, I literally called it apotheosis. It was supposed to be this pinnacle of [laughs] my achievements. I was just a void.

I was just a depressed void that had put too much on myself for so long. I was so burned out and just exhausted, and not eating that well and not sleeping that well, not exercising, not doing anything other than just painting. I was just so depressed, so unbelievably depressed. That was the first time that it hit me that hard. Thankfully, there was university counseling and that kind of thing, but this just kept happening. I would take on way too much over and over then, I would just fall into another pit.

I guess I just wanted to be more open about it because I have a really bad habit of just running myself absolutely ragged. I wanted to speak on how people just need to take breaks and it's not that [unintelligible 01:20:07] a concept but also therapy and talking to your doctor-

[01:20:15] Ash: Just loaded.

[01:20:17] Anna: [laughs] Just trying to be a bit more open about it because I don't know. I started talking about it and I had a lot of people reach out and be like, "Oh my god, I thought it was just me that felt this." I tried to be a bit more [unintelligible 01:20:32] about it because at that point, I was big on oversharing on Twitter. I've reigned it back in a little bit but at that point, it was where it just went to yell my feelings. I felt I found other ways to process things now but at the time, it was a way to work through my thoughts.

This is a very rambly answer but I guess, in terms of how I deal with things now, I got a therapist over the beginning of the situation which was amazing. Just a proper therapist. I'd had counselors, but this is someone who had experience in all sorts of acronyms that I can't remember, and just had to do all of these tapping things, man, I don't know. It was very complicated, but it was extremely useful.

It's given me over time, all of those experiences enough tools to be able to walk myself back from just feeling overwhelmingly anxious and depressed. I still have those feelings but I think it's just like, "Oh, I know how to deal with you now. Rather than spire to get into a pit of misery. I've just got to go to bed." I know when I'm in that headspace and I'm like, "Yes, cool. I know how to handle this now." [laughs]

This is a very niche reference. There's an '80s cover of Numb by Linkin Park. It's super jazzy. In all the comments, basically, this is when you're used to having depression. It's just like, "Oh, my God. I know how to cope with this." It's not fun, but at least we've got that there. Those tools in place and you can navigate your way through those feelings because you've done therapy. You've got medication, you're talking to people, you make sure that you go running.

I've taken up rollerskating and that's been great because it's going outside and getting vitamin D. Just setting yourself up for success really and not just sitting sadly at your computer trying to get a painting done when it's 1:00 AM and you're exhausted and you're only eating crisps.

[01:23:27] Jasmine: It's explainable.

[01:23:28] Anna: Yes, exactly. I don't know.

[01:23:33] Ash: I've seen a therapist myself, maybe for squints, tries to remember, maybe two and a half years? I have my year after school, I think I started seeing a therapist maybe December of 2018 actually, so maybe three and a half years pretty consistently. So much of what therapy was for me was having someone safe to talk to about the thing that was rattling around in my head because you can talk to your friends about things and I do talk to my friends about things.

I think having someone who is focused on helping you understand why you feel a certain way, and then also helping you connect the dots with, "Oh, men, this is actually a negative thought pattern that you're deep into why do you feel that way about yourself?" Trying to help you see away out of things, temporarily or whatever, because that's I think something that I wish was how therapy works is that you go to therapy and then you're fixed and then it's like, "Oh, we're done."

When it's actually more like you feel bad again, it's just having maybe a little bit more perspective about how you feel about things. I think that's something that was the most important for me is that I will still feel down about things but I understand that because of how my life situation is or how my personal patterns are. It's like, "Oh, I'm only going to fill this for the next couple of days or whatever the next week." Then usually that's when it goes away, usually.

Just having those kinds of little understanding moments with yourself, I think helps a lot because then it doesn't feel like, "Oh man, I live here," but that is in the perspective of someone who's like, "I've had issues with depression, anxiety before but obviously, there's varying levels of all of these things." That's just how it's happened for me and for everybody, it's different.

Therapy for sure has been one of the most positive things in my life. I don't think I could have gotten as far as I have right now without having a therapist to call in an emergency. Now I've made so much progress that. Lately, I meet with my therapist maybe once a month and she's like, "Well, you're doing so good. We have nothing to talk about. Let me know if you have something to talk about."

[01:26:22] Anna: That's always amazing. Process things. "I'm fine."

[01:26:29] Ash: I'll tell her things and then as I'm telling her things, I'm already unraveling and she's like, "Okay, our work here is done. Great."

[01:26:40] Anna: It's so good and so necessary.

[01:26:44] Jasmine: That's interesting because I used to go to therapy a lot during high school and after high school and very regularly. Then I just stopped and was just thinking, "Okay, I don't need it anymore because those issues from high school," I don't know. I'm starting a new chapter in my life but in the past years, I've realized that I really should just go for it. I was talking to my friends about this. One of my friends was saying that she also wished that she realized it sooner that just to not stay in your head so much and just go for it and talk to a therapist finally.

Not just think that you have to sit by yourself and deal with these things because as you said, you can talk to your friends about these things but specific things, I just don't want to unload onto my friends. They're not my therapist, they're my friends. I don't want to burden them with some issues that are just difficult to put into words for me in that type of way. It is important and necessary to give you that reminder. It's okay to go and okay to seek for help.

It's nothing bad or any sign of weakness or anything. It's okay. I need to do that myself actually as well. It's quite nice to hear both of your perspectives on that as well.

[01:27:58] Anna: Honestly. It's great talking to your friends but they're also not trained professionals. My God, I think back in 2017, I had some NHS counseling and I was there just in my setup who are you going to get matched to, introductory thing. I was just like, "Yes, I'm struggling with my sense of identity," and that kind of thing. She was just like, "Oh yes, what are your parents like?" It was just bad, bad, bad, bad. She was like, "Oh, have you considered this thing?"

I'm like, "What?" It was so obvious but I'd never even put two and two together. That's literally their job. They are there to have a web of things connecting in your brain that other people just aren't going to be able to put together. Do it. It's great. So great.

[01:29:07] Jasmine: I definitely will. Unfortunately, the system in Germany really like how in England that is the NHS and you can seek that and then go from there, in Germany, it's-

[01:29:15] Anna: It takes a million years.

[01:29:17] Jasmine: Oh, yes. That's the case in Germany too. It's all right. I've been trying and it's so difficult to get support, especially now with the situation. I keep trying. I keep hearing from other people how much it helps them. I just realized I should've done this a lot sooner. Better now than never.

[01:29:43] Anna: Yes, for sure. What is it, the best time to plant a tree was 10 years ago, the second-best time is today? I've got a referral letter sitting right in front of me for an ADHD assessment that is a current waiting time of 18 months. [laughs]

[01:30:00] Jasmine: These waiting times are crazy.

[01:30:05] Anna: Either way, even just those self-acceptance things, I'm not officially diagnosed with ADHD, but given that most of it seems my friends seem to be getting diagnosed with it. We've [unintelligible 01:30:24] together.

[01:30:26] Ash: Out there so many people. Even for me, I've noticed things with my friends where all it took was for me to make friends with one person with ADHD who was very knowledgeable and who's very vocal about what they experienced and what things are like and the things that they do. It just took me becoming friends with that person for me to be like, "Oh wait, I'm surrounded. Everyone here."

Obviously, I'm not going to be like that person who's like, "I think you have AD--" I'm just here silently, like, "Interesting. I hope you find your way." That's basically how I feel.

[01:31:14] Anna: Obviously, I haven't got my diagnosis yet, but I have deep suspicions and already being aware of that does help me accept certain habits. One of which is just, I will impulsively start a new project at the drop of a hat, that thing. I'll wander around and start new courses. I like that aspect of myself and I'm enabling it rather than crushing it down now and that's been really helpful as well. Currently doing a graphic design course. I did a short story writing course beforehand. [laughs] Just jumping into stuff.

[01:32:02] Ash: Also I think doing other-- this is like connecting weird dots out here in the streets, but I feel like doing things like that is also part of the mental health aspect. Something that I started last year late February that I'm still doing now is that I have a Japanese tutor because I was like, "Oh man, I probably should have had one for years and years and years by now." I didn't really know that-- it's like how people find out, "Oh, wait, you can do art as a career. I didn't even know you could do that."

I didn't even think about the possibility of language tutors being accessible online. Then I got one and then it just became a part of my life where it was really nice to just have another focus that wasn't art. I get assigned homework and I have to do it by the time we meet again the next week. Having something else to focus my timeline was really, really positive and helped me be more of a person and doing things that were towards my goals anyways and helped me feel I don't know, healthier and stuff.

I feel like finding things like that is really important because like you said earlier, it's really easy to just be consumed with art life, hashtag art life. I don't know. I feel like you'll get tired after a bit maybe. I know we had had a guest on a couple months back, Lindsay, who basically had to rebuild her whole life because for the first what like sevenish, 10 or whatever years of her career, she made herself only focus on art things.

Her whole life was about art. Then when she met her goal or whatever, she was like, "Okay, I don't know who I am anymore." She had to start over.

[01:34:03] Anna: I had aspirations for years that I would write down my yearly goals and it'd be like, "Be a concept artist, be an art director." I've technically crossed those off now. I'm like, [claps] Ultimately, there's still plenty of things that I'm interested in doing. There are further goals, that kind of thing, but it didn't feel like this, I don't know celestial light descended upon me. I was like, "I have achieved my goals."

I was like, "I'm just here. I am doing stuff that I like and it's cool," but it wasn't like I just reached, what is it like? SIM platinum where you just get the achievement for doing that and then you're just happy forever. It's like, "Okay, cool." I guess it's more about what I'm making now and just the subject matter and the people I'm with. It's always as if it's just part of life and it's not just a bunch of arbitrary tick boxes that [unintelligible 01:35:16] our existence. [laughs]

[01:35:19] Jasmine: I think we tend to glorify that aspect of how the job is our entire life, and that's the only goal we have. It turns out to be very flat and there's nothing else in your life anymore to be worth achieving or being interested in. It gets very lonely after a while as well. It's just that only thing that you look forward to every day is just your job and just what you are doing in that job.

There's so many other aspects in life that you could be doing as well that further yourself, further your life, or further just how you feel. That's the most important thing I really resonate with. I personally didn't spend too much time into hobbies when I was at university. I'm trying to do that more now, but even having a pet to look after, that really helped me as well. Just that I'm forced to take that time off.

I can't really decide when I'm stopping work or when I'm starting because there's something else or somebody else who was relying on me and I need to do that. That really helps as well to kind of-- There's something else out of your control as well that supports that whole mindset, I guess.

[01:36:29] Anna: Yes. It forces you to be present. It forces you to exist in the world rather than existing in the future or on your computer. You can't just be there like, "Oh, and then I will do this specific thing and I'll have this title and it will be lovely." Everything would be like, "No, I've got to go walk the dog."

[laughter]

[01:36:57] Anna: It's got to be really nice. I am a huge fan of that. Also just having the opportunity to chat to people that aren't necessarily just in games and art. That's why I took up roller skating because people are really open to just chatting if you're on skates. Maybe it's because you look like a toddler. You look like a toddler. [laughs] At least I do. Just mostly because I just make everything past the page. I don't know, it looks like I've fallen into a just roll of brightly colored cloth. [laughs] It's great. I love it.

I wanted to do something that was separate to all of the kinds of games and art stuff. Similarly, I was like, "You can just hire people to teach you a thing." I had a couple of rollerskating classes. [laughs] Well, just someone showed up in a park and showed me how to do crossovers and transitions. It was great.

[01:38:07] Ash: The possibilities, endless.

[01:38:10] Anna: Yes. You can't be up in your head when you're on skates because you'll fall over. [laughs] I love stuff that forces you to be in the moment, really. My new goal this year, I want to try kayaking, so we'll see how that goes.

[laughter]

[01:38:33] Jasmine: Good luck. You got this. [laughs]

[01:38:33] Anna: I like water. I paint a lot of boats, so it feels like a natural evolution.

[01:38:39] Jasmine: You're acquainted with them. [laughs]

[01:38:41] Anna: Yes. Oh my God, last year I had some time off. This is back when I was in the sad molasses time and it was really sunny. There was a bunch of boats that you could-- little rowboats that you could rent out on a lake. It was just the most cottage core shit. I had my little quash painting bag and I just rented out a rowboat and just rode into the middle of this pond and just painted trees. Just that. Oh, it was just pure serotonin. It was so good. [laughs] It was great. I would recommend.

[01:39:25] Jasmine: 100%. [laughs]

[01:39:26] Ash: Yes. I feel like anything you can do to get that fun back in there-- It's kind of sexy. It feels like we put it off for a little bit and then get back until later. That really, really sucks. Even with myself and the things that I do, I feel like I've put it off for a bit because I was focusing so much on other things then later on, I'm like, "Oh man, I forgot that I actually did like to bake things." Stuff like that. I think anything we could do to sprinkle in the fun while we're working hard on things is going to just be better for mental health efforts and taking care of ourselves. Hopefully, anyone listening right now, this is your sign to do a fun thing.

[01:40:14] Jasmine: Do that fun thing.

[01:40:15] Anna: Do that fun thing.

[01:40:16] Ash: Yes, to just someone.

[01:40:17] Jasmine: That's the homework now.

[01:40:19] Ash: Someone might be able to teach you how to do that random thing that you want to know how to do, but you didn't really think that like roller skating.

[01:40:25] Jasmine: Just research.

[01:40:27] Anna: Oh, yes. Lookup a tutor, find a tutor and pursue that thing. This is your sign from the universe.

[01:40:36] Jasmine: Manifesting it for all that is nice.

[01:40:38] Ash: Absolutely. To just wrap up and finish up this episode. Things that have been nice to hear about, or just all of the mental health notes, taking care of yourself, doing things that are fun, not working your hands, eyes emoji, not working your hands to death. Just being a little bit flexible and taking a little bit of stepping into the unknown and just trying to see how it goes, because you may never know. I don't know.

You find that you have a latent skill in there that just need a little bit of work and polish and you can become a better artist because of it. Really good stuff makes me think about, especially the thing with you, like bouncing around to different things so quickly within your career so far. It makes me think about like, "Oh, how I can apply some of those thoughts and stuff to do what I do." To finish, finish, finish, finish, you can find Anna on Twitter and ArtStation. Any other links that you want to share? We'll just crim them all in the description box.

[01:42:07] Anna: I never came up with a fun user name. I had my reviews of names, but I'm not that good at branding. My surname is weird enough. Absolutely, I got to go. I had a holiday break on everything, don't make me think.

[01:42:22] Ash: Yes, we'll be including all of their art info and things in the description box of whatever you're listening to you assign. Yes, thanks again for coming out and talking to us. Thank you for still being down and chill to do this month's and month's holiday.

[01:42:41] Anna: Hell, yes. No, absolutely. No, it's so great. It's been super great.

[01:42:49] Jasmine: Honestly it's so inspiring. Yes. It was really exciting to talk to you, to seeing about all your experiences, and how much you have experienced in the past six years. That's just as I said, super motivating to keep going and keep trucking and doing a good thing.

[01:43:04] Anna: You too, doing yoga basic stuff as well. Very inspiring. [laughs] This is an appreciation triangle.

[laughter]

[01:43:16] Jasmine: Exactly. Share all the whole song fields across the globe.

[01:43:19] Anna: Yes. Good vibes.

[01:43:23] Jasmine: To anyone listening right now, if you want to suggest someone to join us for an episode of our podcast, someone who's a great positive force in their community, or just amazing at what they do. Please email those. We would love to have them on. Our email is allinclusivepodcasts@gmail.com. That's allinclusive, no spaces, pdcst@gmail.com. They can work in any aspect of the industry, either it'll be a [unintelligible 01:43:50] artist, radio artists, QA programmer.

We would love to have a super-wide range of amazing, inspiring artists that our listeners can have an insight into many aspects of game development to see how that goes to people that are working in there. Please get in touch and we're excited to have anyone on the show.

[01:44:09] Ash: For sure. I'd like to thank you all for joining us for our, things really hard rated out at ninth, episode number nine of All Inclusive. We hope that you had as much fun listening to us as we do talking. You can find us on a couple of different social media channels. You can find those in the description box below and so far, that's on Twitter, YouTube, and Spotify. Thanks again, and we'll hope you'll join us for another.

[music]

[01:44:52] [END OF AUDIO]