Episode 8: Sady Fofana

 [music]

[00:00:17] Jasmin: Welcome to All Inclusive, a podcast about game development and the diverse people who make it. My name is Jasmin, I'm a 3D environment artist from Cologne, Germany.

[00:00:27] Ash: My name is Ash and I'm a freelance 3D environment artist in North Carolina, USA.

[00:00:33] Jasmin: Today's special guest is Sady Fofana. He is an environment artist of Valkyrie Entertainment and is working on a new God of War, and we're super excited to have him on here today. Thank you, Sady, for coming on.

[00:00:43] Ash: Woo, woo, woo.

[00:00:45] Sady Fofana: Hey, how are you doing?

[laughter]

[00:00:50] Ash: Yes, totally, thanks for coming on. I feel like something that may have not been mentioned before is when Jasmin and I were coming up with this podcast and trying to find people to come on, I messaged Sady months ago. Months and months and months ago, and I was like, "Hey, do you think you want to come on ever?" and then he was like, "Yes." Then months and months passed and I was really worried that messaging you out of the blue that you'd be, "Oh man, my schedule is full. I'm not really interested," but you were so really chill and down to come on, so thanks a lot for that, we really appreciate it.

[00:01:32] Sady: Yes, no worries. I'm one of those people that if it's already two days or two months, I'm okay with that.

[00:01:42] Jasmin: I love that, absolutely.

[00:01:43] Sady: I'm always lost in what I'm doing, so I tend to lose track of time, if that makes sense.

[00:01:52] Jasmin: Yes.

[00:01:55] Ash: We appreciate the go with the flow nature, that's really nice of you. Coming on into our first topic just to get a general feel for you as a person and a little bit of your history. I wanted to know about how you got into game art and your education history and stuff like that. Yes, let's start there.

[00:02:20] Sady: I think at first when I started, at least doing 3D in general, I was going for animation in high school and it was just to be like, "I'll just do 3D and submit this in as work and hopefully get easy A," but later on, it went from being like, "This is just schoolwork" to then really tinkering around with 3D modeling and stuff, and being like "Yes, I think I actually liked this. Let me continue on this." At that point, I didn't know exactly what I wanted to do. I went for animation at first, and over the years during college and stuff, I realized animation wasn't my thing.

I wanted to do something different and I realized I really liked modeling and making scenes and environments. I decided to go into games for this and I thought being an environment artist will be a great fit for starting off on that path.

[00:03:36] Ash: I feel like, in a sense, we have similar backgrounds in that respect because I didn't think that I would go in the game art direction either, my degree says I'm a character animator. I can't animate a single thing, but I thought that I wanted to go into animation, too, I guess, even more hand drawing animation, and stuff like that. I felt like thrown into modeling stuff and then it clicked I guess, and then here we are. It makes me wonder, I guess maybe this is just me, I'm interested in hearing from a lot of people how they got into doing the thing that they're doing because if you started in animation and you're more into game art now, I wonder how many other people have been like, "Oh, yes, I was a fine arts person," or, "Yes, I was a biology student," or whatever.

I feel like the game art attracts a lot of people from a lot of different paths to do the thing and that's why it's so fun sometimes to meet different people with different perspectives and stuff. Also, I wanted to know a little bit about what your experience was post-grad. Did you go to a, what's the word? Did you go to a four-year university or did you go to a three-year certificate sort of deal? Does that make sense as a question?

[00:05:30] Sady: Yes. I started off in a four-year, but unfortunately, I only did one semester. There were some stuff with either between funding and me not really vibing with animation. Those were the two factors where I was like, "I think I might take a break from school and hopefully study this stuff on my own." It got to a point where I was self-teaching myself. There are things, social stuff that I learned in university where I'm forever grateful for, but I was like, "Yes, I think at-home stuff will be good for me for now in the field I want." Plus, I don't want the loans, all those loans.

[00:06:25] Ash: Oh, don't remind me.

[00:06:31] Jasmin: That's a big move that you actually realized that you would be better off studying by yourself because that's what I also realized after one year at uni. As you said, it's great for socializing, coming out of your shell, having your first contacts with people who have similar interests to you at least in a similar direction because I guess in high school, it's very broad where everyone's into, but at least at uni, it gets narrowed down. For the actual learning part sometimes it can be tough if it's not an exact field you want to do. Animation is so different to environment art so we couldn't really probably get much out of that to apply it to environment art I guess.

[00:07:13] Sady: Exactly, and it's like a weird experimentation where it's you got to really see, you got to evaluate like, "What do I want to do with the art that I'm doing?" I know for the most part, it's not just solely about monetization but it's more like, how can I turn this art into your career path in a way in a way, and what field do I want to go do? I don't know, for me, it's been a mix of trial and errors in some ways where I was like, "I learned from some mistakes, but I didn't learn from others, let's see how can I improve upon that," and stuff.

[00:08:03] Ash: What I've been thinking about a lot lately is there's a concept of not knowing what you don't know, and when you know what don't know, then you can make the decision to get yourself on the path to knowing those things. It sounds like your experience was like, "I'm in school for a second and I know that the things I don't know which are the things that I want to do is more like modeling and game art stuff." Stopping school and doing the self-taught route, how did you figure that out? Because my experience was a lot different where I didn't even know that this was going to happen, but I feel like what can help people is figuring it out sooner, if that makes sense.

Was it just that you had a goal in mind after going through school for a little bit, and then something clicked where it's like, "Oh, man, I actually realize now that the things that I want to do are more video game-related?" Does that make sense as a question?

[00:09:21] Sady: Yes. I guess for me, I didn't knew right then and there that I wanted to go into games at that point. All I knew was that I liked 3D modeling and I wasn't really feeling comfortable in school, and it took me a while to understand where it was bit by bit I'm researching and studying these types of job types. I guess for me, after college, I was pretty much just working in warehouses and stuff, and after work, doing the stuff in my free time. It got to the point where I was just dabbling with stuff where I was like, "Let me see how an engine works or how this other program works compared to just doing Blender and stuff."

It was more baby steps in my side of things where it was more like trial and error, but those errors weren't setbacks in a way. To be honest, errors are setbacks, but not big setbacks because you could always learn from those experiences and build upon that. I think for me, it got to a point where I was like, "Let me see how games go and see what scene I can make." Even if it doesn't look as good, hopefully, I could see the stuff that I learned from that so-called field scene and work on something new and continue to work on it. It took me a lot longer to realize I wanted to get into games when I left college.

[00:11:33] Jasmin: I was wondering how long was that phase from when you left college, and then now, for example, that you got your job. How many years was in between? I think that might be interesting to know for people.

[00:11:47] Sady: I guess it was three years at least.

[00:11:49] Jasmin: Oh, wow.

[00:11:50] Sady: Yes, I know it seems a little long.

[00:11:54] Jasmin: No, it's short. It's not.

[00:11:55] Ash: Absolutely not. I feel like that's maybe on the shorter if not average side, honestly. Sorry, continue, and then I'll say what I was thinking.

[00:12:09] Sady: I don't know, for me, it felt long in a way where I continued to stay in San Francisco and worked a couple of odd jobs. I know I did a mix of working at music venues and bike rentals. I wasn't really feeling that. At least with the music venue side, I was like, "I love this job, I love the people here, but I don't want to do this for a very long time." There are some moments where I was talking to my sister up in Washington, and I was like, "Hey, how is it there? Are there any good jobs to see here?" She was like, "Yes." Maybe a few months later, I decided to move up here.

I feel like that was one of the better decisions in my life because one of the jobs that I previously worked at was a wood staining company. It was this small tight-knit warehouse. The people in the warehouse knew that I wanted to go into video games for the most part. I'd talk about the stuff that I make and all that. There'd be times where there was like, "Yes," they're onboard 100% on this stuff. It was weird because before then, all the other jobs I did, it wasn't that way where people are like, "Oh, shit, that's cool." It was just nine to five work, get your dough and then head out the door, but that warehouse was like, "Yes, go ahead and do it."

My previous boss, Steve, was like, "If you feel like this is what you want to do, then go for it." It was like a weird teaching moment, where before then, I was just focused on I got to pay the rent. Maybe if I have time, do some 3D, but for the most part, just focus on work, go home, sleep, and then wash and repeat, but now, being here, I learned to socialize a little bit more and stop isolating myself in a weird way, if that makes sense. I think those skills helped me develop myself as a artist or towards. Now I'm starting to learn how to interact with people a bit more. Luckily, Valkyrie was nice enough to accept me into their company.

Talking to the amazing people there, I was like, "Damn." I never met any other 3D artists face to face until that point. It was weird. At the same time, my mom was supportive, but at the same time, hesitant-

[00:15:22] Ash: Of course.

[00:15:22] Sady: - about the skill or this career path. I felt like I had to continue at this so I don't let her down in the way where like I left college. This is what I have to get better at, or else, what then? I don't want to work in a warehouse all my life, if that makes sense.

[00:15:55] Ash: No, it completely makes sense. There's a couple of things I relate to you with that as well. Before I forget my thought, what I was going to say about you taking three years to do the thing, I think that's really normal. I really want to stress that also for people who are listening to this or finding this or whatever is that there's just a lot of factors, and I think most of them have to do with social media, unfortunately.

Even on ArtStation, you can get on ArtStation and its people are constantly uploading things or someone with like, I don't know, a bajillion years of experience can just bust out some environment art in two months or 30 days or something and it'd be super impressive, and then people who are trying to learn can be really hard on themselves. I know I've been really hard on myself before being upset that the work that I make isn't to the quality of some senior environment artist person who's been in the industry when I was graduating high school. Unbelievable expectations. I feel like what's actually more true is that it just takes a lot of patience. Art just does.

The trial and error thing, you brought up a really good point about not seeing making errors as true setbacks. That's really, really positive and something that I hope to remember myself when everything look like they're going wrong or the sculpt is just ugly or whatever because sometimes your art does have an ugly phase. Often it will and you have to just keep going with it.

[00:18:05] Jasmin: Another thing also you brought up was that you said how isolated you were before, and then when you got into an environment that embraced you and nurtured you being a 3D artist and meeting people in person, that's really something I relate to. I think we talked about this before with Ash that I'm also super introverted. I just like to be in my cave and just do my thing and come out occasionally, but as soon as I had one experience where I met all the people who are working so much at my internship and meeting that people, I started to see I can actually interact with people and talk about my art and be a bit more forthcoming.

That really helps you as an artist, too, because before, you have this old door closed with the community that is out there that you can share your art with, talk about it, get some confidence in yourself, and that's super important. That's something that can happen very quickly if you're by yourself and trying to slip it in, and have also that pressure you need to get better quickly. Nowadays, it's so nice because you can go online and not be alone in that whole process of getting better. You don't have to just put all that burden on yourself, there's other people who can help you lighten that burden a bit at least.

[00:19:19] Sady: Exactly, yes. That was the thing that caught me off guard with the communities out here. Before then, I was in no discord communities. I was pretty much just going on YouTube just learning about myself, but the moment I started hopping into a few groups and just talking to people and getting their feedback, in a way, it was nice. At least I could talk to people, getting their feedback, and seeing other people's work, and giving feedback and stuff like that, too. I feel like the communities in a good way, I don't know how to describe it. It's pretty nice that there are communities like these, especially during what's going on with the pandemic.

[00:20:23] Jasmin: Oh, yes.

[00:20:24] Ash: Right, for sure.

[00:20:27] Sady: Man, I don't know how to describe it.

[00:20:32] Ash: I think that makes sense to me. I think that if not for certain Discord groups or whatever, my time in the pandemic would have been a lot more miserable 100% because, with Discord, we can connect to other people, other people who do similar things as us, we can make friends. Then on the flip side, even though there is that social media pressure to always respond to people immediately or whatever, we could choose to just not respond to people, and since it's the internet, I think maybe some people are slowly getting around to the idea that when it comes to internet interactions, you just shouldn't expect someone to get back to you immediately which is great because sometimes even I, extrovert extraordinaire, do not want to respond to that DM immediately. I want to wait for hours before I respond.

[laughter]

[00:21:28] Jasmin: Or five days.

[00:21:30] Ash: Or five days or completely forget it. No. I think that it really just goes to show, and I've said it before and I'll say it again, something that is becoming a consistent human theme as we talk to people has been community. No matter where on the social spectrum you find yourself falling on, I feel like we've learned or I'm learning that people need other people in some way or another, whether it's just like you're super introverted and you're cool with your snow partner or whatever, that's fine, or if you're super-super extroverted, then you need to have a bunch of people to hop in a call with you or whatever right now.

People really need people and I think it's thanks to people that artists are getting better and better at the things that they do and people feel more encouraged and they feel less alone, and stuff like that, so it's all good. It's all good, warm, fuzzy feelings. I love the community.

[00:22:42] Sady: Exactly. For me, I'm still trying to get used to social media in at least the posting-your-work side of things because there are times where I don't post for weeks, but I just post one time like, "Okay, see it but don't see it, please." I'm just like, "I just want to post, then dip out and then ignore it for the rest of the day." I'm still pretty shy when I see a huge call of Discord people and I'm like, "Oh, man, I think I'm good for now. I'm going to play something like Call of Duty or something."

[00:23:31] Jasmin: Oh-oh. It is so hard to bring yourself to put yourself in those situations I think, but then it's like when you do it, people are usually really chill about it. I feel like I am always in my head so much, and then I'm in there and everyone is like, "Oh, thanks for joining us," and it's like, "Oh, God." [laughs]

[00:23:49] Ash: As a person who is in a server where there is often a call with a bunch of people in it because I'm in there, if you ever see me in a voice chat, please come into the voice chat.

[00:24:02] Sady: Oh, for sure, yes.

[00:24:03] Ash: Seriously, it's like people are, at least the people that I've hung out with, they've really given me some really great perspectives on life. I feel like I've grown as a person and even if it's just to lurk, I totally encourage lurking because sometimes people don't want to talk, they just want to have a podcast version of people just talking about whatever nonsense, and so they'll mute themselves, but not deafen themselves so they can hear what kind of nonsense I'm talking about in the chat at the moment, but totally. I think it can be scary to step out of your shell, but I don't know. So far people are nice, and if they're not nice, then I'll just address it because I have the power to do that. Not to threaten anyone, but to threaten mean people. No.

[00:25:02] Sady: No, it's like walking into another classroom for the first time where it's like, "Oh, shit, I've seen these people before, but what should I say? I know they are people in my classroom."

[00:25:16] Ash: Absolutely. I know in the club, which is where I hang out all the time, whenever new people join, basically, everyone is like, "Hey, how's it going?" We've made it a point for people to greet each other and stuff, so if you ever see me around, you are already invited. You are already in the voice chat with me in spirit, you just have to pop in.

[00:25:40] Sady: Oh, yes, definitely. Hopefully like--

[00:25:42] Ash: Yes, plus, I feel like-- Sorry, so ahead.

[00:25:45] Sady: Oh, no, I'm sorry, you go.

[00:25:47] Ash: I was just going to say that I feel like, at least amongst other environment artists or whatever that I know, people have seen your work and I'm sure they would love to get to know you as a person. You have more to offer than just your work. You could show them how cool you are. You could show them all your funny little reacts and emojis that you have. You can send those. You could whip those up.

[00:26:09] Sady: Oh, I can't wait to spam them with CRT images that I found off the internet somewhere.

[00:26:14] Ash: Oh, no.

[laughter]

[00:26:20] Ash: Yes, moving onto the next topic. I just wanted to ask you if you can tell us a bit about your art. I know that's a very broad question, but I really enjoy all the sci-fi art you're doing and how much details you have in the things, it's insane. I just enjoy looking at it. It's true eye-candy to me, so I wanted to know what initially always inspires you to do these projects. Is there something from your childhood maybe that always excited you or is it just something that you developed over time? I just wanted to know your thought process what goes through your mind when you start a new project or what went into this project. We could even go into some specifics if you want, I'd be down to hear.

[00:27:07] Sady: Oh, yes. I guess for me it was a weird mix of childhood movies that I enjoyed. I don't know why I was watching Blade Runner in like 12 or 13. All those sci-fi and fantasy type of movies. I always liked the esthetic of how grungy yet crisp all the lighting and scenery was. I think with the CRTs, I really, really love Fallout: New Vegas. At least with seeing the CRTs for the first time, I haven't played any MMO type or RPG type of games until then. When I started CRT for the first time, I was like, "Damn." Subconsciously, I was like, "Damn, I really like the way this looks."

I kind of forgot about it and stuff, but when I started learning hard surfacing and going through the motions of just dashing out some stuff, I started adding screens to it and seeing what weird way I could add a screen, too, whether or not if it's like this weird clicker thing that has 15 unnecessary screens that don't do nothing but look visually pleasing. I was like, "I might keep this," and stuff. I think there were some moments where I whipped out the art in order to practice on what I'm working on. There are still stuff with hard surfacing I want to learn. It was a weird mix of watching YouTube videos and seeing what the heck was a chamfer.

I found that was a fancy word for bevel and I was like, "Oh, man." It blew my mind and I was like, "Damn, okay." I think just learning bits and pieces of that and adding it to my art has been one of the factors that I felt that I've been able to learn from. Also, I tend to stay away from sci-fi sometimes once in a while and I guess it's more of I don't want to get too comfortable. For me, it's intimidating enough to do something that I don't know but to learn from that. Even if that project didn't work out at the end, again, you learn something from it, and then hopefully, you could use it in the next project and stuff. A lot of film, a lot of games. Weirdly enough, I know Akira and, what is it called? Cowboy Bebop is the go-to for everyone where it's like, "Yes, this is a sci-fi. I like sci-fi." In all honesty, those spaghetti Western-type of sci-fi type of stuff, it's really dope. Recently, Synchronic on Netflix, those type of small or broad type of sci-fi stories, it's very inspiring. I'm like, "Damn, this is pretty dope. I want to do this." I'm not good at storytelling or anything, but at least when it comes to art in general like lighting or modeling or shading and stuff like that, those in itself tell a nice little story, could invoke some sort of emotion to that piece.

I know I use a lot of edge lighting to it. For me, I'm like, "Yes, I love this edge lighting because it feels nice to me, I don't know why." Sometimes I overdo it, but I'm like, "Oh, man," edge lighting and reflective screens and stuff. Oh, man.

[00:31:39] Ash: I feel like that's completely fine. Art can be heightened reality. I think that that's completely fine.

[00:31:47] Jasmin: Yes, so true.

[00:31:48] Ash: If you're ever like, "Oh, man, should I add one more light?" you have my permission to add one more light.

[00:31:56] Sady: Oh, yes.

[laughter]

[00:31:56] Ash: Put in one more light.

[00:31:57] Jasmin: Do it. I think it's interesting because you said that you're not good at storytelling, but looking at your props, you have so many interesting little things incorporated. It makes me already figure out a story, or makes me intrigued and be like, "Oh, I wonder where this prop would be located and what the surroundings of it would look like." Only the small stickers that you have all put on it, that already is a lot of storytelling to me. I think you're underselling yourself a lot there. It's amazing. They all could be from some sort of film or short film or game.

That's why always when I see your work, I always thought it's some final from existing IP, but then looking through your stuff, it's completely original. I'm like, "Wow, this is insane." My next question was, actually, how do you concept these? Do you just concept in 3D or do you have a huge mood board, and then mash them together and go as you go? What's your process in that?

[00:33:01] Sady: My mood board is a definite go-to for this type of stuff. I'll be going through Pinterest grabbing some hard surface shape style, whether or not it's CRTs or old pieces of weirdly shaped metal that I could just drop into PureRef and stuff. For 3D-wise, I so wish I could draw, I'm telling you. I really want a concept someday where I could just do the 2D stuff, but for now, I'm stuck with block-outs. For most part, I was bad at not using block-outs, and then some of my older stuff looked weird, but over the years, when I started doing that, it helped me a lot. How do I say a lot better? I know that's not a word.

[laughter]

[00:33:54] Ash: The ultimate something.

[00:33:56] Sady: It was weirdly one of those things where just seeing the rough shapes and seeing the idea in a rough basic form, you could pretty much pick and choose like, "This is one part I don't like about it," and then you could just tweak from there. The same thing with environments, too, where you could start to build that visual library when it comes to doing the rough draft version of anything. For me, I really, really like stuff like Pinterest because there are just enough weird people who do have a bunch of CRT images that I could finally use. It's a weird microcosm of references.

I think in, was it Reddit? In Reddit recently, I found there is a Reddit called spicypillows and it's basically, you know when phone batteries and stuff are broken and then they start to inflate?

[00:35:10] Jasmin: Oh, yes.

[00:35:11] Ash: Oh, yes.

[00:35:11] Sady: Some people hit it with a hammer just to get it to inflate and stuff. I use that as reference for some details that I'm working on. I'm like, "Damn, this is a weird sub-Reddit, but I'm here for it."

[laghter]

[00:35:27] Jasmin: You will need that.

[00:35:27] Sady: Oh my God. I was like, "spicypillows? What the heck?" It's those types of weirdos that make me happy to do hard surfacing and art in general. I'm just saying be weird with your art in a way. Don't worry too much whether or not the idea you have is not going to work out, but just execute it, and if it doesn't look right, then you can always change it back.

[00:36:03] Ash: That's what we reference.

[00:36:04] Sady: References. At least for me, references and just maybe concepting in 3D, those are the main things, and also, a lot of feedback. It's always important to receive feedback from other people because 9 times out of 10, you get tunnel vision when you're working on something and what looks right to you could look off to a few other people and stuff. Sorry, I need water.

[00:36:43] Jasmin: No worries.

[00:36:44] Ash: That's fine.

[00:36:47] Jasmin: It's always good to get some fresh eyes on your work, for sure. Like you said, not staying in your head too much is a big thing, I guess because just doing and trying out and failing is so much better than just thinking about it for like a week and being like, "Oh my God, should I do this, should I not do this?" Just do it, and then if it's shit, it's okay, just move on from it.

[00:37:11] Ash: It's so weird because it feels like the opposite because I think that maybe people, in general, are taught to be careful with what they do because everything is about time maybe even to a degree with something as simple as cooking food, you don't want to waste the food, so you should think about what you're doing with it. Even with cooking, there's a reason why people, or maybe just me, say that baking is a science and cooking is like art because you have to experiment and stuff. It feels so uncomfortable even for me, I'll say it.

It feels really uncomfortable sometimes trying to be okay more with making mistakes and letting something look like crap because I just spent six hours working on this thing and now I have to do it over, or whatever, throw it away, whatever. It takes a lot of courage to just start doing things and getting to the whole hashing it out process, for sure.

[00:38:34] Jasmin: We learn over time. I used to be terrible at that, and then now I'm just like, "Oh, fuck this, I'm doing it."

[00:38:43] Ash: I'm still working on it. I, honestly, am still working on it. That's something that I'm trying to work on with myself is not getting too caught up in my head with trying to make something perfect. Sometimes it just has to fit with everything else. It's like, "Oh, man, why stress out about this sconce lamp when no one is going to look at it as close as I am?" Stuff like that.

[00:39:09] Sady: Yes, it's things like that where sometimes it's okay to take a break, step away from it because you always feel like, "I really got to do all these things now. I've got to make it perfect, now." As you are both right now, you have amazing artworks and stuff, too, where you already learn from where it's like you all know when to take your time with this stuff.

With some of the newer people, they always feel like they have to do it all today. They get a little bit burnt out in a way where it's like, "Oh, if I haven't done all the texturing, modeling and the concepting in one day, then what?" You get into this weird burnt out mind state where it's like, "Damn, what now? I feel discouraged and stuff." It's always good to step back, see what you like about it, what you don't like about it.

You learn from it in a way. I know I always had that bad issue with that where there were some nights where I'll be going to sleep at 1:00 and waking up feeling like shit, I'll be like, "Goddamn. Hey, I don't want to do this. I'm not up for it today." Over the years, you learn there's always tomorrow. You can always revisit something that you want to finish and stuff.

[00:40:56] Ash: For sure.

[00:40:58] Jasmine: Exactly. You just have to be patient and be patient with yourself to it, not judging yourself over time that you not being fast enough. What may be helpful and that's probably why younger people students have this mindset, is when you start working, you realize that nobody expects you to finish a prop in a day, or nobody expects you to finish a whole level in a week or something.

You start getting this more healthy mindset like, "Okay--" As long as you have a good working environmental support, obviously. You realize this is a team effort, you're not by yourself all the time figuring things out. You can get help. It would be nice if this could be also carried out to younger people and students that they don't expect that they have to know everything straight away and be the fastest person ever, texturing, modeling, environmental art, rigging, animation. It gets overwhelming to think that.

Maybe that's why we all started having these thoughts in the first place because you don't know. You have no idea how things work out there after you do your own projects. It's a very different thing to work by yourself than on a team. You get a weird mindset all the time.

[00:42:14] Sady: For the most part, they always see the end result of the thing and realize, it feels like it was completed in a day or in a week or something like that, but that stuff, the person who's working on that, they may have been spending months or even years on that stuff. Whether or not, when it comes to making a kitbash or building up a library or anything like that, that stuff takes time. Nine times out of 10, you realize what you want with your project when you run into a roadblock. I wish I was told that in [chuckles] college and stuff.

[00:43:02] Jasmine: Should be a whole course, [laughs] to be honest. Technicalities are great, but the way you deal with your work and time and keeping a healthy relationship with art is just as important.

[00:43:18] Sady: Exactly.

[00:43:19] Ash: For sure. Something that I mind myself sometimes is, I had a conversation with [unintelligible 00:43:27] a long time ago, a couple months ago. We were talking about progress and art and stuff like that. We were talking about how he got to the level of stuff that he does and stuff like that. Obviously, he puts in a lot of time into what he does, but a lot of it for him is also being patient with himself and giving himself a chance to learn, which is something that I am struggling with.

Like we all said, there is a pressure to be good right now. Sometimes you have stakes and stuff where you don't want to let your mom down or whatever, or I didn't want to let my parents down or whatever. You feel like you have to be good right now. Even if you have that feeling, it doesn't change the fact that you still have to spend time with something. Just because I don't want to make my parents sad with me about what I've chosen to do, it doesn't make the learning game art go faster. I still have to sit there and work at it over a long time to have something, start to look like something. Hopefully, that's something that I'm going to try to continue to remind myself of, is just being patient.

You also said that sometimes you're just not feeling it and you just say, "Oh, I can workout something." I honestly feel like that's really okay because sometimes there are days where you're just like, "I just want to sit around and eat potato chips." That's fine [laughs]. It shouldn't be like a lot of things in life look to be. It's about mileage rather than how fast you do things. It's more about chipping away at something, rather than I don't know, doing it all at once or whatever.

[00:45:34] Jasmine: I think that's why it's so unnecessary when there's always this main question, "How long did this project take you? How many hours did you work on it?" It's helpful maybe, but every person is so different that something can take a longer time for somebody else than the other person. Especially when you're beginner, you can't put an hour on it yet, really. That shouldn't be a pressure to be, "Okay, I need to be just as fast as this person because they finished their project in two months, that means I need to do that too. You can't put the same mold onto everyone. It doesn't work that way.

[00:46:13] Sady: I always set deadlines as like I'll make one project one month and then do the same thing. That's not the way to go in some instances. They see how long it takes and stuff like that, but it's all about patience. I know it's been stressed at a lot, but patience is one of those things where it's, I'll say, it's a virtue.

[laughter]

[00:46:48] Ash: Uh-oh. No, [unintelligible 00:46:49]

[00:46:51] Sady: Oh, no. I'm sorry.

[00:46:53] Ash: Oh, no [laughs].

[00:46:54] Jasmine: You can learn that. I think you can. [laughs]

[00:46:58] Ash: No, not again.

[00:46:58] Jasmine: It's possible.

[laughter]

[00:47:01] Sady: I only wish I had patience when I'm cooking too because I either end up burning my food or under-cooking it, and I'm like, "Whatever." I'm just hungry at that point just like, "Let me have my meal."

[laughter]

It's okay. One day from my cooking skills.

[00:47:20] Jasmine: You've got so much patience and freedom that you can give yourself some freedom in that regard. [laughs]

[00:47:29] Sady: You see smoke coming out my window and stuff, and it's like, "Well, [unintelligible 00:47:32] Is this house on fire, again? Oh, no."

[00:47:35] Jasmine: Gone wrong.

[00:47:37] Ash: He did.

[00:47:40] Jasmine: I think this is a good part to have a little break, and we'll be right back.

[music]

[00:48:08] Ash: Welcome back to All Inclusive. Before the break, we talked a little bit about just being patient with yourself and working on your art. We got into [unintelligible 00:48:17] education history and a little bit of their artistic history. I wanted to talk about next, maybe a little bit of another tangent on your personal work. I wanted to know if there was a point in your personal work where you saw a bump in quality.

I feel like with art, sometimes there's this plateau that happens where you're making a bunch of stuff, and you get to a point where you see the stuff that you may want to make stuff like on ArtStation or whatever, but your stuff isn't at that same level, and there's a bit of a gap. I was wondering if you had any experiences like that, and what helped you overcome those gaps.

[00:49:09] Sady: I could be honest, I'm not even sure. There are some moments where I realize, maybe between, at least the RV and the CRT stuff, where I realized this may have been a nice little progression step. It's probably a small step, but I noticed where it's like, "Oh, damn. Actually, this looks better than the previous one that I did before." There are some moments where I was trying to figure out like, "Man, was it the lighting that got better?" You can't really tell what happened. The thing that helped out was, I started reaching out for feedback more. Before then I'll reach out for feedback, but maybe once or twice in a while or so. When I started talking with other people and getting their perspective on things, and applying that back onto my stuff, that's when I realized, I was like, "Oh my god." I not only talk about my work where it's like, "Oh, man, this got good. Hell, yes," because I still feel like-- That's why I realized it's a bit of a step up compared to the last one. I think the one thing that I'm trying to remind myself is that each artwork doesn't have to be as best as the last one.

[00:50:56] Ash: Controversial.

[00:51:00] Sady: That's a fast way of getting myself stressed out quickly, at least for me where I'm like, "Damn." I noticed, with the food cart I was like, "Man, I got to make this have all the cool arms and the cool CRT stuff." Then, later on, after I was done with it I was like, "Maybe I don't need to make a bigger piece of comped up technology that is bigger than a food cart. Maybe I should focus on form and texturing with the next one." That's when I did the-- what is it called? the Aliens, Ridley Scott screen thing.

I was like, "Maybe for this one I'll probably focus more on that and a little less on the, I don't want to say razzle dazzle, but the razzle dazzle of the arms and stuff." I don't know. That was the one rare moment where I was like, "Okay." I finally saw an improvement. Every project doesn't have to be a major improvement, but hopefully then I could what I learned into the next few projects I want to do one day.

[00:52:22] Ash: For sure, the small steps are probably more important, like the little bit of consistency, and stuff. As long as you keep trying with stuff, that seems to be the better thing to do and perhaps that's the message for people who are trying to take their own personal work to the next level or whatever. It's just, keep working with it, and asking for feedback from people who you trust and stuff like that seems to be the way to go, which I vibe with. That's what I do or I'm trying to do. I have a couple of people who I trust who will be like, "Hey, look at my thing," and that's how I've been able to grow. Cool.

[00:53:19] Jasmine: I think it's also great that you said that it doesn't have to be as great as the last piece always because I think that's a big pressure we all have, when you have this one piece that you really like, and people are also saying, "Oh, great, you leveled up a lot with this piece," and you say, "Oh, shit, I got to do this again now maybe. [chuckles] People want me to be better next time or have to see improvement."

That also creates so much pressure and stress that you might not even end up being able to pull off anything like, "I just feel like I'm in a slump now. Oh god, I don't want to touch anything because I'm scared. I can't put anything now because people expect me to do stuff." We don't need that pressure. Like you said, if you see improvement in your own work and own workflow, that's the more rewarding thing in the long run because you feel more confident in what you are doing in your craft and not that everyone else is telling you, "Oh, you leveled up a lot by this piece now." You got to feel happy with your own work that you produced even though it's not the same scale or whatever.

[00:54:26] Sady: I think what put this in perspective with me was, in my one semester that I did of college, there's our teacher that I was talking to where he was talking to a kid where he was great at drawing from a young age. He was able to draw a really nice federalized people on stuff. He was talking to the kid and the kid asked, "Oh, how does it feel to be very young and being able to draw this good?"

The kid was like, "Oh, I don't know how I feel about this because now people are going to be expecting more from me in a way where it's like, 'Oh, if he could do this as a kid, what's he going to do as a teenager or an adult?' They're going to have these super high expectations about, 'Oh, maybe he's going to be able to draw a photo realized stuff.' " Maybe his stuff was still pretty damn good, but students thought that he liked the art. It's like the outsider looking and seeing like, "Damn, it's going to be amazing. Let's see," but it's with time.

Sometimes we get to cap words, like, "This is the greatest that's going to be. I could be greater, but this is the greatest I feel like I'm going to be and I like it." I'm not great at all. I'm not saying I'm great. At least for every other artist, just remember that even though that-- I don't know how to describe it, even though you feel discouraged about your work, it's going to reach that point of greatness one day, whether or not you're six or 60. One day, you're going to have a magnum opus that you're going to be proud of. I don't know, I feel like that's a goal in mind.

At least with social media and stuff, it's okay to post your stuff, be proud of it but don't let that be the guiding factor of how you enjoy your art in a way. I know there's this one weird project I'm working on, the [unintelligible 00:57:02] stuff, where I haven't really talked about it much but I was like, "For some reason, I want to make this project and mount it on the wall. Hopefully, that's going to be my magnum opus one day." I'm still working on it but man, I don't want to say again, things take time.

[00:57:24] Ash: It's fine because 3D art is dumb. You have to do a bajillion things in 5 billion different programs, and then you spend 8,000 hours in a blackout. It's fine. [laughs]

[00:57:36] Sady: Exactly. The way I feel I've made it is when I have a piece that I could truly be proud of. I feel like that should be the same everywhere else. I don't know. It's so hard to describe because I never really thought about this before but now I'm thinking about it. I'm like, "Oh, man, this is too heavy. What am I thinking of?" If that makes sense.

[00:58:08] Jasmine: It does.

[00:58:08] Ash: Absolutely makes sense. You make a lot of sense.

[00:58:15] Jasmine: [laughs] It's good to just think out loud and also have that internal conflict spoken out. That's reassuring because we all have that. It's hard to speak about art in general. [laughs] Moving on to the next topic, we were both really keen to know what your experience has been so far working in an outsourcing studio. Is there something specific where you could also say that it's different maybe to other places? Was this your first job when you started in the industry? Or did you work at another studio before that?

[00:58:53] Ash: Even freelance experience or anything.

[00:58:56] Sady: This was my first job in both freelancing and permanent work. The only other job I'm going to compare to is the warehouse I worked in previously. Those two are contrastively different on the setup, and how everything is all set up in a way. For the warehouse staff, one's goal in mind is to get out the orders of treads, risers, or wooden vents and all that and make sure we got a certain number by the end of the quarter because from there, we get a bonus.

It was always like, "Okay, everyone knows what we got to do. Let's do it. We can have fun at the same time but, this is going to sound weird, don't have too much fun because the more distracted you get, the more you veer from the goal in mind." I feel like that Valkyrie was the same way where it's like-- Except for the fun part. The fun, it's a lot better in height compared to the other one. Everyone knew their goal in mind. It wasn't a rush. They were nice enough to be like, "We don't want to crunch you. This is the way we're going to do things." It made me feel really comfortable to start working here because talking with all the amazing people at the company and learning new things, whether or not it's things that I normally never wanted to. In the God of War project, I'm doing scenes in nature where I'm like, "Oh my god." I never touched nature once, but I'm learning all these stuff from the leads and this is blowing my mind. I'm like, "Oh my god."

Aside from that, work-wise, the social aspect of Valkyrie, it's pretty nice when I was going in office stuff. It relatively stayed the same when we started doing work from home. Everyone is always upbeat and always ready to help and answer your questions. It feels like extended family in a way, the same way I felt about the warehouse job. They're my two sets of family away from family in a way. It's been pretty good, at least, learning from other people instead of just learning from You Tube.

[01:01:44] Jasmine: How was that transition for you? Did you get adjusted to that quickly, that instead of doing everything by yourself, you had now people to reach out to, or was that very easy to get into that?

[00:01:58] Sady: Personally, I feel, at least, for me, it took a minute for me because in general, I'm a little bit of a slow starter when it comes to learning something new. Everyone was down to help and actually answer questions I had about the specific task in hand. It was pretty awesome because before that, I was like, "I'll just sit silently and figure this out myself."

They stressed this out enough when I first started working there where it's like, "Don't be afraid to ask questions because more than likely we'll be happy to help." I'm a person who's afraid of asking questions. I'm in fear of annoying people and stuff, where I'm like, "I'll figure it out on YouTube somewhere." People, they were more than happy to help in that stuff. I think that was something new that I also learned there is, never be afraid to ask questions even if it's a dumb question because in a way, all questions are dumb questions even the ones that-- I think someone told me that just to make me feel better in a way, where it's like, "It's okay. All questions are dumb questions, but that's why they are questions to be learned from."

[01:03:29] Jasmine: Exactly. That's a lot healthier to go about it, than being in constant fear of asking things, but having an environment that encourages that as well as even better, especially if you're having difficulties to get into it. It's so nice that you had that opportunity with the studio. That's amazing. Sorry.

[01:03:54] Sady: No, sorry.

[01:03:57] Ash: Did you have a tangent?

[01:03:59] Sady: No. I promise I didn't. No more tangents for me, I promise.

[01:04:01] Ash: No, no. I want a tangent. A tangent is good.

[laughter]

[01:04:06] Jasmine: Give it to us.

[01:04:08] Ash: Maybe I have a tip. You have one?

[01:04:10] Sady: Yes. No, I said I forgot my tangent. Please, my train of thought is always derailing at this point. At home I'm like, "Oh, man." I always forget one. [laughter]

[01:04:25] Jasmine: Don't worry.

[01:04:26] Ash: I ruined it.

[01:04:27] Sady: I'm sorry.

[00:04:28] Ash: No, it's fine, dude.

[00:04:28] Sady: No, you didn't. [laughs]

[01:04:31] Ash: The only thing I was going to say is that that's something that I also need to get better with too, is-- Being able to ask questions to someone, for me, especially when it comes to art, there has to be a lot of trust there. It's why maybe I'll only ask for a critique from a small group of people, or my mentor or whatever because I trust them and they know me as a person, or whatever.

Again, even in those situations it can still be scary because sometimes it feels like a stupid question or it feels like, "Oh man, this is probably just such a basic thing that I don't know about." With art in general, there's documentation about stuff, but when you start to learn things, there's not really a centralized area of information for things. You're looking at some bio tutorial from 2016 that someone recorded to find out this one bio functionality. Then you're going to-

[01:05:39] Sady: In 480p also.

[laughter]

[01:05:40] Ash: In 480p, and then you're looking at someone's substance designer tutorial, where it's a substance designer material that isn't even similar to the one that you're making, but they do this one thing at 835 that you need to know how to do, so then you're looking at that. It's so daunting trying to learn stuff. Sometimes I think maybe when I try to ask things from people who are more ahead on the artistic journey, it's like, "Oh man, you must do this every day. This feels so simple to you like breathing air or drinking water. You wouldn't want to help me."

Every time I ask they always want to help me, and it always feels like a trick. It always feels like one of these days they're going to [laughs] figure it out and be like, "No more help for you," but that hasn't happened. It's just an irrational imposter syndrome filled with fear of mine also. So far, people have been nicer than I thought that they would be. Hoping to get better at asking more questions because I have to learn too. You guys can't hold all the learning. I have to learn. [chuckles]

[01:07:04] Jasmine: That's such a good point. It is something you can literally learn. It's like you just get used to and then a barrier at some point, even if it takes a long time, just slowly disappears. It's slow, but it disappears out. It's the same with me, to be honest. [laughs] Just a small question at the end regarding your work. Is there any advice you could give to other people maybe that are looking to work at an outsourcing studio?

What's great about outsourcing studios is that you can focus a lot on the art aspect. That's really nice because you work with the artists together and nourish each other along the way. I think that's really nice. Is there something though that you can tell others that would also like to have this position, what they could do to get closer to that?

[01:07:55] Sady: Yes. The best thing is tailor your art to the stuff that you want to do. If you want to go in to be an environment artist, but you're making character art that wouldn't really mesh right. At least, for applying for something, it's always good to tailor your work to the position you want. Even if it's a general position, you can always have a little bit of everything, where it's like, "Here are my materials, my lighting, my modeling." It doesn't have to be great. It could just be something that shows that you know what you're doing.

Also, one more thing. This is a little bit weird, but learn your textile densities because I didn't know what the hell that was when I was applying for a few other jobs. I was like, "Oh man, what the hell is a textile density?" It was like [crosstalk] Learn the little things. The basics are boring, but it helps. There's a lot of documentation, in not just our station, but A-level Polycount with all these types of resource. You don't have to be a pro at the thing you're learning. You just have to know how to do it. It's a weird mastery. It's good tailor your art to the job you want, if that makes sense.

[01:09:46] Jasmine: It does because then you get the jobs and the type of offers that you want. You're not going to want to pretend that you like something else and then work in a job you don't like. It's just daunting and horrible. It's the best strategy just to do stuff you truly enjoy, and then if you're good at it, then you're going to end up doing as a job as well. You're not going to feel you have to change yourself and your interests to just fit into a position. There are positions that can fit to your interests as well.

[01:10:20] Sady: Exactly. I know the hiring process it seems like you do one or-- not even one, maybe 5 to 10 different applications, you submit it, and you don't hear back from some, but you hear back from others. It may feel depressing but it's still a step in the right direction when it comes to applying because at least from there you start to learn, "These are the things I need to get better at." Even if you're lucky, if the people do respond back they give you feedback on, "This is what didn't work with this."

I had that happen in 343, where they was nice enough to give feedback on my portfolio. Even though I didn't get the job, the people there were nice enough to be like, "We'll message you back and tell you what you need to work on, stuff like that." That really helped out a lot.

If there is any companies listening, please respond back to your emails because there are still people out there listening and waiting for the emails back or something, even if it's, "Hey, you're not accepted." That's even better. I'd rather have an email confirming that I didn't get accepted than no email at all.

[01:11:55] Jasmine: For sure. It's such a nice feeling to at least have that chapter closed. No matter the outcomes, positive or negative, just having closure is great. It would be nice to have if people could take the time to do that. Especially giving feedback, I think that's amazing that they actually gave you feedback on your application as well. That's really valuable.

I think we're reaching the end of a little podcast journey [laughs] today just to wrap up maybe what we talked about. It was a lot, but we're going to try as always to summarize. If you guys see us forgot something, please don't hesitate to correct me, not contact me. It's informal. We talked about how it's important to be patient. I think that's a really good aspect we covered that you should give yourself time to be experimenting with your work maybe not even if the outcome is bad. Or maybe if you fail at some point in the process, it's okay, you still did something. Keep doing what you do. Eventually, if you create art that you are passionate about and that you enjoy doing, you will find a position that will nourish you and support that interest that you have.

As [unintelligible 01:13:28] said, it's super cool that you got this type of job. As your first step in the industry, that's such a nice place to have that you can continue doing what you love and even get out of your comfort zone at the same time. That's a great balance.

[01:13:44] Ash:For sure. I think as always, we are continuing to see the positive impacts of having a supportive community around you whether that's, you're not working in the job that you want to yet, but you have coworkers who are very supportive of you and cheer you on from the sidelines and stuff, that's really valuable and finding discord communities and stuff to make friends in and interact with other people and other professionals and get their perspective, get their eyes on your work so that you can improve.

That's stuff is also really important. Every episode I hope I get the chance to stress the importance of community.

[laughter]

[01:14:39] Jasmine: For anyone listening, you can find [unintelligible 01:14:41] on Twitter and ArtStation in the box, or the links wherever we have this podcast episode uploaded. Thanks so much for coming on.

[01:14:52] Ash: Thank you so much.

[01:14:52] Jasmine: I hope that you had a great time talking to us because we certainly did.

[01:14:57] Sady: Thank you for having me on.

[01:14:59] Ash: Thanks for putting up with us, more like putting up with me. That could be a ton of [unintelligible 01:15:09] That's fine. I appreciate it. Thank you so much for coming on and sharing with everyone a little bit about your journey and your art and the things that go through your mind when you work on it. We said before, sometimes when you are an artist and you're a little bit present on social media, you can become this image, this personality, and we really want to help humanize the artists that are making the work.

I'm sure there's a lot of people out there who look up to the stuff that you are doing and probably want to make stuff that's going in that same direction. Hopefully, those people will find something out of this as well. Maybe even one day, you guys can all meet up and talk about the same cool stuff. Talk about all your cool projects.

[01:16:08] Sady: Once this quarantine is over.

[01:16:10] Ash: Once the quarantine is over. Exactly.

[01:16:12] Jasmine: One day.

[01:16:15] Ash: If anyone listening would like to suggest someone to join us on the podcast, someone who is a great positive force within their community, along with being great at what they do, please send us an email @allinclusivepdcst@gmail.com. That's allinclusive- with no spaces- P-D-C-S-T- @gmail.com. They can be a city artist, studio artist, community manager, someone who works in QA. It really doesn't matter who they are. They just got to work in game dev and be cool and nice. I would prefer them to be nice.

[01:16:51] Jasmine: Thanks a lot, everyone for joining us for the eighth episode of All Inclusive. We hope that you have just as much fun listening to us as we do talking, and you can find us on a couple of different social media channels. You can find the links to all of those in the description box of whichever platform you're listening to us right now. That will include Twitter, YouTube, and Spotify. Thanks again. We hope you join us for another episode of All Inclusive.

[music]

[01:17:29] [END OF AUDIO]