Episode 4: 2020 Recap

 [music]

[00:00:17] Jasmin: Welcome to All Inclusive, a podcast about game development and the diverse people who make it. I'm Jasmin, a 3D environment artist from Cologne, Germany.

[00:00:27] Ashley: My name is Ash and I'm an environment artist here in North Carolina, USA.

[00:00:32] Jasmin: Today, we wanted to do things a bit differently than usual and since it's December and the year's already over so quickly, and I can't believe it, we wanted to have an episode where we have a little chat with each other and introduce us to our listeners because we don't do that before yet. Recap the year and just have a little heart to heart with each other, so a little cozy session. Get your cup of tea with us and let's have a little chat.

[00:00:57] Ashley: Yes, like Jasmin said this year-- When did the first episode of this podcast even come out? Was it September?

[00:01:07] Jasmin: Yes. Yes, it was September I think.

[00:01:10] Ashley: Man, it feels like it's been so much longer somehow, but I think it's probably because we started planning this thing in June, right?

[00:01:23] Jasmin: Yes, exactly.

[00:01:25] Ashley: Yes, and it's been really cool so far and it's been nice to get to know people that I otherwise wouldn't talk to. It's been great to get to know you a lot better than-

[00:01:38] Jasmin: Same.

[00:01:39] Ashley: -before-- Yay-- than maybe I would have before. This year, obviously, has been a little rough for the world and you can't really-- I mean you can, but I think there's a lot of adjustment that people have been having to do with their daily lives and trying to get as much or even like a piece of the same amount of work done as they would before or whatever. How has been stuff for you so far this year, like working on art or how was it different for you this year as opposed to years before or whatever? How are you feeling right now?

[00:02:29] Jasmin: It's quite hard to put into words sometimes. It's weird because when everything started with the pandemic in March I think when everyone was getting serious about it at least here.

[00:02:39] Ashley: Yes.

[00:02:41] Jasmin: I was like, "Oh, this is going to be pretty easy for me," because I've been at home for most of my time even when we had normal university lectures because I just preferred to be at home. I'm pretty introverted as Ash knows as well.

[00:02:53] Ashley: Yes. [laughs]

[00:02:55] Jasmin: Like the more I can avoid being in public spaces or with a lot of people I'd like to avoid, that's okay with me. Well, the more time went on and then we went back and forth on lockdown right at this moment, I don't feel the same like in March. I feel like I'm coming to terms with it, but sometimes I just feel so agitated and stressed and down for no particular reason that I didn't experience before last year at this time. Things that usually wouldn't annoy me really annoy me like three times more nowadays. [laughs]

[00:03:29] Ashley: Yes.

[00:03:31] Jasmin: Especially when you're working on your own art, it makes it even worse. You have these expectations for yourself that you always have, but now they feel like amplified by three times. I don't know if that's just me.

[00:03:43] Ashley: No, no, no.

[00:03:44] Jasmin: Or if it's my mind messing with me. [laughs]

[00:03:45] Ashley: No, I think that's going to be a thing that more people are going to feel, especially because art is so cerebral. It can be about expression, but it can also be very introspective and reflective and sometimes, as artists, when we stay in our heads so much, it can be very negative also because we [crosstalk]

[00:04:09] Jasmin: Exactly.

[00:04:11] Ashley: Sometimes we need to be around something else or someone else to regulate that and since the pandemic thing is going on, it's harder to get that experience without possibly endangering yourself. I think you're spot on. For me, I'm not in school right now. I work a day job a couple of days a week right now, but the same kind of similar challenges are happening over on my end where in the beginning it's very isolating.

Early March, March-April or whatever, when stuff over here was getting ramped up, people are really, really locked down. I didn't do art for maybe four weeks-ish at all because I was just so numb, kind of coping with what was going on. It was just so weird because there was a very real fear that if I went to the grocery store that I would get sick. My parents are older, they're not old-old, but they're older and so I didn't want to put them in danger by--

Even going to the Asian food market and buying stuff or whatever, it felt like everything was really, really dire. Not to say that it isn't right now, because it's still obviously very dangerous, everyone should be watching it right now. It was just hard to deal with that because it's something that no one has been able to really-- There's no one to really look to to say, "This is how you deal with something like this," I guess. The last time, at least in America, something like that happened was almost a hundred years ago, a hundred-ish years ago.

[00:06:15] Jasmin: It's not normal at all.

[00:06:18] Ashley: Yes, absolutely not. So trying to accept that it's dangerous in a way that it hasn't been dangerous before for me as someone who's young, I'm only 25 and I don't know how to deal with the pandemic. It took a toll. Art suffered for that also.

[00:06:48] Jasmin: That's interesting you're saying that, because I also had these two months of feeling stuck, what to do with myself and the art that I was making because the pandemic just started, right, when I came back from Canada. I had this half a year of just working and not really doing art for myself. I was just doing the stuff for the internship, but it was also very inspiring because I got to know so many people, socialized to most I've ever done probably before in my adult years, I would say.

Looking back, I guess this is amazing. I will continue doing this and I will put all this energy into art, but then we came back and I didn't even get to see my friends or anyone really, except my home and was just stuck at home. All these plans I kind of now choked into then I guess. For two months, it was also this feeling of being scared, not being able to do anything, so I really relate to what you were saying that for a specific amount of time, you wouldn't have the energy to put that into art because it is something very exhausting at the end to do. Everyone says, "Oh, it's your passion. You should be energized [unintelligible 00:08:00]" No, it's not like that.

[00:08:03] Ashley: No, it's really not. Like [unintelligible 00:08:04] sit down, you're like, "Oh, man, I have to do this again. This repetitive task or whatever. I have to figure out these things again, it's going to take me forever."

[00:08:14] Jasmin: So passionate. So much passion going into this.

[00:08:16] Ashley: I just love laying out UVs man.

[00:08:19] Jasmin: Yes, it's the best.

[00:08:21] Ashley: Honestly, it's really like, you're really lucky to be able to come back before things started ramping up. Because I feel like if you had not, you'd be stuck in Canada for a little bit.

[00:08:34] Jasmin: Yes, that was my fear. Because I wouldn't be able to afford it because I was living in an Airbnb which is, I wouldn't recommend that in hindsight, to be honest. I wouldn't be able to sustain that for another four months or something because the border was closed up quickly and I know people from Turkey, for example, they wanted to come back to Germany and it took almost three months to get a flight back. I'm feeling really lucky we got back just in time, but it also felt super isolating, but I'm lucky that I'm not living alone.

As I said, my mom is here and my boyfriend, so at least we have each other, but as you said, I also had this fear that my mom might get sick because she's also in the risk group. She actually got tested for the first time last week twice, actually, because she's got this app here that alarms you if you need to get tested and then cleared on twice. I was just thinking, "Oh God, if she's now infected, I can't deal with this. Please stop [inaudible 00:09:35] but everything's fine. It's like, it's something very close, you don't know when that's going to happen, what's going to happen, so it's like a constant little stress reaction in your head basically.

[00:09:51] Ashley: Yes. It feels like a looming shadow is the best way that I can describe it.

[00:09:59] Jasmin: Definitely. [laughs]

[00:10:00] Ashley: It's almost like if anyone has issues with depression or even anxiety. You know that it's always there just in different amounts and the fear or paranoia with corona is similar to that, where it's like, at least until they get widespread vaccine applications or whatever, it's just going to be here and we just have to cope with it and deal with it and it's really hard.

I feel like, kind of like we said, art is already hard under normal circumstances, especially if you're having school and then you want to get personal projects done, or if you're like me and you have a day job and you have to come home and get projects done. Or anyone who's working in industry, period, and wants to get something else done, or even just if you're working and that's the only thing you do right now, because you cannot deal with the anxiety of doing something else right now. It's hard. It's all hard.

You've probably seen these posts or whatever on Twitter, but I remember distinctly, when the pandemic stuff started back in March, there was lots of Twitter posts about if you're going to be home for the next six weeks or whatever because of lockdowns and things, you should spend this time learning anything or a new hobby or a craft or whatever.

I was so on defense about it because I am definitely a Type A person. I like to have lists and get things done and feel productive, but at the same time, that same sort of thing could be my downfall where I feel like sometimes the way that I cope with anything, like if I feel insecure about myself or inadequate about anything, I am more likely to do more than I have to rather than take a little bit of a break.

I feel like some of that idea that was running around on Twitter for a bit fed into that word. It made me start to feel guilty because I was like, for these four weeks, why am I not doing anything? I have time, it's not like I don't have time, why can't I get myself together and just do things, but it's really fair, right? I don't know if you felt any pressure to get a bunch of stuff done during that period or what.

[00:12:49] Jasmin: It's true, I did actually have that pressure in my head because before that, I don't think yourself would get to the idea of having to set yourself that goal for four weeks. If I wouldn't have read these things, I'd be just, :"Well, okay, I'm just going to continue--" I try to continue as usual, just do my best and try to have a routine, but when I saw these things, I was thinking, "Oh, okay, so I have to find a bigger goal for myself." You make use of this four weeks.

I think that feeds into this whole idea that that sounds like maybe a bit now exaggerated, but we as a society have, that we have to be constantly productive even when there's times of uncertainty or times when you maybe need to step back a bit. This was like this whole idea again like, "Oh, you're staying at home, may as well do something about it. Just being at home doesn't mean that you have nothing to do."

It's like recently here, the government released a video just to spread awareness about younger people staying at home, not meeting up with friends, I like that sentiment. It's important to obviously share that, but the whole thing was more likely about that people are staying at home and doing nothing, so they should just continue doing that because they have nothing else to do anyway, so they should just continue being lazy and that's good.

Then I was thinking to myself like, in the past months, I've not been really lazy in that sense. I've been doing stuff, maybe not significant stuff, but it's still like I'm trying to do my best. I can see both sides. On one hand, it's important to not feel pressured by these outside pressures that people create for you, because you as a person and that's what I've heard from you as well, you have ambitions and you set yourself goals and they're already pressing enough. It's not like you need this extra pressure from outside to tell you, "Okay, you need to have them all goals. Now you need to achieve more now." It's already a lot.

[00:14:42] Ashley: Oh, for sure. There's the amount of stuff that you could potentially try to do. It's just always going to be exponential, especially if you're a person who likes to do a bunch of things, which I guess I would consider myself as a person who likes to do a bunch of things. Just this morning, I was looking up, I was pretending I was in a world where career didn't exist and I lived in a bigger city and I was like, "Oh man, what if I could take cake decorating classes." Now imagine what fun would I have to take like a two hour-- I guess it would be like once a week or whatever, I found one, it was like once a week from 7:00 to 9:00 PM or whatever.

[00:15:17] Jasmin: Oh, that's so nice though. [laughs]

[00:15:19] Ashley: It would be really nice. It was in Atlanta. I was like, "Oh man, what if I took like cake decorating classes?" because I like to bake these days. I should show you. I'm going to make a white chocolate mousse cake with a raspberry filling.

[00:15:31] Jasmin: Oh my God.

[00:15:31] Ashley: Chocolate cake with a red mirror glaze on top [inaudible 00:15:34].

[00:15:35] Jasmin: Oh my God. I'm howling already.

[laughter]

[00:15:38] Ashley: I was like, "Dude, I wish I could produce them," but I looked at that. Then I was just looking at other baking, like pastry chef classes or whatever and I found one where you could get basically a certificate and immediately I was like, "What if I did that?" That's so much more work than I probably should take on, but it's like just an example of there's so many things that I could do, but maybe it's not always going to be the best thing for me to essentially try to do everything and just try to chill out a little bit more or whatever. At the beginning of the year, I always write down more or less some goals or whatever, I don't know if you can see them.

[00:16:29] Jasmin: Oh, nice. Yes.

[00:16:31] Ashley: it's backwards, but stuff that I want to do in 2020. Some of them are very ambitious. I don't know what I was thinking on December 26, 2019, but there's goals in here about blog posts and learning substance design. Some of this stuff I have actually done though. I've been learning modularity this year, which is good. I've been studying Japanese more because I have a tutor, so I've regained a sense of proficiency there.

There's stuff on the list that I've done, but it's also like trying to remember that if I am dead-tired, that it is okay to not do something. Because this time is harder than normal. Hopefully, you've been resting more too out here in some way or form even if it's like passive like watching Netflix or something. Sometimes that's really good and therapeutic to do.

[00:17:44] Jasmin: It is actually, yes, because you don't have to do anything. Sometimes I feel even too tired to play games because you still have to use your brain actively to do things. I'm terrible at games, I'll say that, it's no lie. I really need a while to finish levels, I really need a while to finish boss fights and not try to ask for help and let my partner do it for me, [laughs] because I just want to enjoy the story but it's so nice to just sometimes do nothing.

Just to let your brain go on empty mode and just not think about anything for a while. It's difficult to do that, even that takes practice I feel, because even when I'm watching Netflix sometimes, I grab my phone and then I start messaging back to people or if there's something [unintelligible 00:18:29] that I wanted to read about and it's still not relaxing. I'm still doing random stuff and making my brain work in five different ways again.

[00:18:38] Ashley: Oh, for sure. Especially since, I don't know if you have an Apple phone, but I have an Apple phone and with the newer updates, you can watch Netflix while you're in other apps.

[00:18:48] Jasmin: Oh, really?

[00:18:49] Ashley: Yes. It will be like a little--

[00:18:50] Jasmin: [crosstalk]

[00:18:52] Ashley: Okay. I feel like other phones have been able to do that for a long time or whatever, like split screen or whatever, but basically I could be watching Great British Bake Off and then be talking to you on Discord at the same time, which is nice. However, it could be really--

[00:19:09] Jasmin: It's risky.

[00:19:09] Ashley: -it's risky. It can be very easy to just never really take a moment for yourself and just relax.

[00:19:19] Jasmin: That's true.

[00:19:21] Ashley: When it comes to the work that you've been doing or whatever, has there been any projects or little things this year that you're really proud of, I guess? I feel like this is bleeding into topic two, [crosstalk]

[00:19:40] Jasmin: That's so much true.

[00:19:41] Ashley: -but talk about your art stuff this year. What's going on there?

[00:19:51] Jasmin: I think at the start of the year, I realized that I've hit a wall in my own art in a way that I felt like I knew about, for hand-painting stuff, for my oldest stuff, I've been doing a lot of hand-painted stuff with no lighting, mostly just diffuse textures and stuff like that. I felt like I've got good enough at it that there's now the moment that I can swap to another thing and learn something new and elevate my odds a bit, because I felt like I was just starting to do the same thing over and over and didn't really fulfill me anymore that much.

It's kind of scary at the same time, because I was like, "Okay, I'm good at this, I'm getting, for example, job offers or people being interested in my art because of this. Is it maybe even clever for me to do something else?" but I was like, "Okay, I'm just going to do it," and don't care about the outcome, because I knew that I'm not going to be as good as on PBR or on Substance Painter and Designer as I was with my other stuff with [unintelligible 00:20:55] just painting stuff.

That's when this year I actually started to get more into this part of my art journey to learn things that I would be scared of, before I wouldn't even consider myself doing. I would say last year at this time, I wouldn't be thinking that now I'm not even painting anything anymore and I'm just sitting in Painter and Unreal Engine most of the time, which has quite changed my mindset as well because I'm thinking I shouldn't settle myself too quickly on something and be like, "I'm going to just continue doing this forever now," because that's what I used to think when I started with uni.

I was like, "I'm going to do just hand-painted stuff, that's my jam. I'm not going to do anything else." Now, I'm just like, "No, I can do anything. Maybe at some point, I'll do realism, who knows?" It's open to discovery and like don't put yourself in a box too quickly. That's what I really learned about it I think.

[00:21:52] Ashley: I've had a lot of conversations with a bunch of different people about that sort of concept of like not putting yourself necessarily in a box, because I don't really feel at home and doing strictly one or the other and I realized a bit like saying stylized versus realism, like those are the only terms that we have to describe what people do.

I think it's kind of a fault of language in a sense that that's like it makes it look more polarized or binary than it actually is, but I know, for me, as I'm trying to find what I feel comfortable with, there's things that I enjoy about stylization and there's things that I enjoy and appreciate about more of like more detailed, realistic things, and that's something that I'm trying to push myself into with my current project. Actually, I can probably show you where it's at. I'll just show you where it's at and we'll get some pictures of my work in progress in there. This is where my project is right now.

[00:23:37] Jasmin: Oh, awesome. Love it.

[00:23:40] Ashley: Well, the mannequins are in here, we need to get rid of those, but it's not like-- There's elements of stylization in here because it's pushed colors or whatever, that's what I want, but what I'm trying to get more and more comfortable with are getting more detailed with assets and things like that because that's something that I've been afraid of, because I wasn't taught how to do that at all in school, not even remotely close.

[00:24:12] Jasmin: Yes, I feel you. [chuckles]

[00:24:14] Ashley: Yes, and so I developed a fear that I'm trying to tackle this year, and that's where it's been really rewarding, but then also really scary at the same time because it's not my comfort zone at all.

[00:24:38] Jasmin: Yes, [unintelligible 00:24:39]

[00:24:40] Ashley: Yes, yes, yes, and if I could show you where I actually started, the stuff that I graduated from school with or whatever. It was so much not like that. It was like the stuff that I was doing before it was like this, basically. Then--

[00:25:10] Jasmin: Yes. Okay.

[00:25:11] Ashley: Yes, yes, which is so much different than this. The jump is so big.

[00:25:18] Jasmin: Yes, definitely.

[00:25:20] Ashley: I was so afraid to do that because it was new territory, but I think what I'm trying to do is face my fears in that way. Oh, goodness, I could go on and on and on. This project has taken me a long time for multiple reasons. I work and I get tired. Sometimes I don't want to do any art. Sometimes I would rather just exist and look at YouTube videos, but it's been a huge growing experience for me. I totally understand trying to push outside of your comfort zone, because that's constantly what we have to do, right?

[00:26:04] Jasmin: Definitely, it's scary. Like you said, it's so hard to take that jump initially especially if you would have been doing different stuff before that, because you're also doing a big scene right now, and doing that brings so many new challenges. I've been experiencing that right now with my university project, because it's open level and I've only been doing fixed-- not fixed positions necessarily, but from one view angle-

[00:26:30] Ashley: Angle, yes.

[00:26:30] Jasmin: -kind of environments. This thing have corners like a longish temple that needs to look good from any point of view. You walk around it, it has a character. It's been very headache inducing, but also very rewarding because I realized what I was lacking in challenging myself, because I didn't do that before. It's nice to realize, "Okay, I'm hitting a wall, but I'm hitting a wall for a reason, kind of." If I want to go 100% smooth as, "Okay, I'm pretty comfortable with this at this point," so you're doing everything that's familiar to you in a way, but it's also very demotivating at the same time.

For the first two weeks, I've been feeling so down about it because nothing I was doing was working, and now just work out suddenly like, "It works a bit better now." [chuckles] I still have a lot to do, but I'm like, "I can see that it's getting somewhere." It's fair that these things take a while, it's totally fine. It's good status taking a while because you're making sure that you're going for every step of the production pipeline, you're making sure that you're iterating, that you're open for changing things when you see it doesn't work. That will happen ultimately with any project in the end with this playground and try these things out.

[00:27:46] Ashley: Yes, like a quick short example with this project. I know that before there were-- [chuckles] I had a whole area in here. I was struggling with this corner. Basically, I made some horrible, horrible-- I'm sitting in jar right now. I made some horrible, horrible scale mess-ups where the room was massive. Basically, it was like a drawing for the empress of the world. It was that big. I was like, "Oh, man, I need something to go in the space." Then I was like, "Oh, man, what if I had stairs?" Now the idea of the stairs was a cool idea.

The way that even started making those stairs was because I was asked by my mentor to fix the roof and make sure it was all, or like the ceiling, and make sure it was all lined up modularity-wise in the correct units. In doing that, I found problems with the scale, so then I had to scale it down twice and scale up the assets in the scene twice. Then after that, I was like, "Something still feels wrong."

I got rid of the stairs and made the room narrower and that was what fixed it. It was like I spent two and a half, three weeks trying to fix this thing and then I had to get rid of it. Isn't it just like your day where it's like you do stuff and then you have to get rid of it? It was totally like I feel was bad-man moment, but [laughs] in the end-- I know you keep laughing, but don't laugh at me though.

[00:29:25] Jasmin: No, no, I feel you because it's really--

[00:29:27] Ashley: You're laughing with me, it's fine. [laughs]

[00:29:29] Jasmin: Exactly. [laughs]

[00:29:30] Ashley: [laughs] It was like it's better for that difficult area and I think it's part of that art thing that I hate, but it's what I needed at the time.

[00:29:48] Jasmin: It's so funny because I remember when you messaged me about the scaling issue and I was thinking, "Yes, this is super important to take care of," and then a week later, I was playing my level and then my partner came over, Ryan, and he was looking at my level. He's like, "Jasmin, just sit down a second. Did you actually look at the scale of this thing?" I was like, "Yes, it's the right scale. I've had the character in [unintelligible 00:30:14]." He's like, "Yes, well, this temple looks like actually an ant and everything is so huge. How are you going to fill this up?" I'm like, "Yes, that's why I hate this thing because it's so huge." Then we look at it, it felt like, [laughs] it makes it so bad when it's so huge. It makes it worse. [laughs]

[00:30:32] Ashley: Yes, and then the stress of thinking, in your situation, if I'm as small as an ant, the potential stress of thinking about how much I have to fill this space, that was something I was trying to figure out. Because I was like, "I don't really want to make more big furniture assets. That's going to take a lot more time." It seems like there's no choice but to do that, because there's so much empty space and it feels awkward. I guess in yours it is like, "Well, I can only put so many altars," I'm just assuming. "I can only put so much stuff in here. Well, I have to make more. Maybe the solution is to just make it smaller, which sometimes you drag your feet to do that because it's like, "I want it to feel grand and big and lush," but then, maybe not.

[00:31:14] Jasmin: That's the thing. Because then as soon as I scale it down by I think half a unit or was it even five units, it was fine. I was like, "Oh, okay, it does make sense." This was a normal size." It was really weird, because I have like these big arches and stuff. I can actually show you that too.

[00:31:32] Ashley: Yes, I would love to see. Basically, part of my scale problem was-- Oh, pretty. Part of my scale problem-- Oh my goodness, this looks so good.

[00:31:50] Jasmin: This was the old scale. The character was there, if you can see him.

[00:32:04] Ashley: Oh, my word. That's so small.

[00:31:57] Jasmin: I know. It's just like, "Yes, maybe it's just a huge temple," because the whole thing is as a hippo and the temple as well is huge. I was thinking, okay, maybe this hippo owned this temple, so he's lived there, but this is almost like a scale, it makes no sense whatsoever. I scaled it all down and I had the character actually, when he stands on stuff, it makes sense. He can walk through the gateways and it doesn't look like an ant, so it's not too bad.

[00:32:24] Ashley: That totally feels better. I know with mine, and this is something that I'm still trying to learn with scale, is that-- This is honestly part of the problem with being used to everything in freedom units, aka feet, is that I had my wall pieces is three-meter wide pieces. In my mind, I was like, "That's fine," because if it's three units, it's totally just three feet. Then three weeks ago, I was like, "Wait, one meter's three feet."

[laughter]

[00:33:06] Jasmin: Oh no.

[00:33:07] Ashley: The room was 45 square feet or something, and it was a square. I'm like, "This is massive. The room I'm in isn't even that big." My space is probably not bigger than this. Then I looked at the size for a big-ish living drying room and it's like, "Yes, so at the biggest it might be 30 feet by 27, 28." Then I was like, "Oh my goodness." That's in modern times and Victorian era times, it probably would have been even smaller and more cramped. I was like, "Oh, no, what have I done?" It was such a problem.

That was a low point for me where I felt just so stupid because I was like, "You've heard people drill into your head that scale is important and you didn't even have--" I remember doing some assets near the beginning where it was like, "This chair looks a little small for some reason," because I made it to real-world units, basically. I was like, "This is a little small for the room. I'll just make it bigger without thinking maybe the room was too big. Maybe the room was the problem." Unbelievable.

[00:34:23] Jasmin: Yes. It's true. Well, we shouldn't feel stupid for that, because in the end we're learning from it. I know you're not alone. We both had a train of thought and we still had time for any of that.

[00:34:36] Ashley: We just want grand spaces.

[00:34:38] Jasmin: Exactly. We're thinking big.

[00:34:40] Ashley: We're thinking big. It's the problem with ambition, which should be curved perhaps. Just calm down.

[00:34:52] Jasmin: It's good to have that. I think it's better to have more ambition than too little. That's so real, because it's hard to find that initial drive to even do things. In this case, we have to even hold ourselves back not to go too much above it.

[00:35:09] Ashley: I know. I already know what I want to do for my next project, actually, and I'll send it in chat for you. I know it's going to be a problem. I found the artist on Twitter, so I'm going to ask him for permission, but I want to make this.

[00:35:27] Jasmin: That's really cool.

[00:35:29] Ashley: It has the end goal that I want for myself where the geometry itself is more detailed, but maybe there's the chance for stylization in textures and colors and things like that, pushing that. That's what I would like to do. Even that's ambitious. I'm like, "Wow, this is going to take me seven months to do.

[00:35:49] Jasmin: It's fine. Don't you worry.

[00:35:53] Ashley: I'm excited to do it. I just have to get through this thing that I'm doing first. I was just going to ask you about you yourself as a person, separate from art, if you've learned anything about yourself this year?

[00:36:08] Jasmin: That's so good one.

[00:36:09] Ashley: Deep?

[00:36:11] Jasmin: Yes. I think I learned that I'm more extroverted than I might have thought of myself, because last year, I would just always say I'm completely introverted. I'm not really into social gatherings and stuff. This year, having the lack of social gatherings and seeing people, made me realize that I really miss that and I'm craving for it almost to the point when we did meet our friends after five months, I was so excited. I just couldn't stop talking. I just wanted to touch on every topic we missed out on in the past months and felt like we should do that again. Then I felt like we should all go on a holiday together, but obviously, we can't do that now because of all these things. [laughs]

[00:36:59] Ashley: So many times I will message a friend because this year was supposed to be the year that I was supposed to go to GDC, which would have been my first trip, cross country by myself in San Francisco. I was looking so much forward to going to San Francisco and seeing everyone. Every now and then, I'll message one of my close friends, it'll be like, "You know how we were supposed to go--" at least once a week, or we'll talk about, next time we get to go in 2027. We're like, "In 2027 when we actually finally get to go to GDC, we're going to get a big house and have just five people in the house so that we could just hang out all the time." It's so sad this year. It's so interesting that you found out that you're more extroverted, that's so awesome.

[00:37:45] Jasmin: I didn't really expect that because I think that extrovertness came out when I was in Canada because I had really great people around me who made me go out and we explored so much stuff together. I really enjoyed that because I didn't have much of that before except with my partner, having a bigger group of friends doing that in person is really different to being online most of the time and talking to people. It's a different experience.

Another thing I think that's important to say, I realized that I need to set more boundaries because I'm very much a person who likes to do things for people. I don't like to say no sometimes, which is a bad trait I think, because I really enjoy helping people but sometimes that ends up with people crossing the boundaries and being in a way expecting me to do things for them even though I might not have the time or the energy to do that. As soon as I say no, we'll end up in this thing that, "Oh, you never said no, though. Why now?"

That's something I tried to do this year by not just maybe answering people instantly or not saying for once, "I can't do this for now. I'm sorry. I don't have the time or the mind for it." I realized when you're honest with people in this way and just tell them that you're not up for it, they're okay with it. It's not such a big thing that I made open my mind that I need to be present at all times for everyone and agree to everything in a sense to please people but myself. Nowadays, it's like, I know that I have to take the time for myself and think of myself sometimes too.

I've been trying that. I've realized it's a family trait. It just seems to be something that I always had that I go above and beyond to do things for people but not really thinking about the consequences that I might have for myself in the long run.

[00:39:38] Ashley: Yes. Learning how to say no is hard. I'm not the best at it either, especially when it comes to friends too, setting boundaries with friends. There's a point this year I had to tell a friend I can't talk about this right now because it's stressing me out. It's something that mattered to them, which-- It was really rough doing that because I'm like, they're my friend. At the same time, I feel like I will be a better friend if I can take care of myself.

Thankfully, no one interpreted it as a selfish sort of thing, like, "Oh, she doesn't care," but more just people have been really respectful of it. Like you said, if you're just honest about how you feel about something, hopefully since you're around good people, people will understand that and be chill about it, which is great. Love that. Hopefully, we can set some more boundaries in the next year.

[00:40:50] Jasmin: Definitely. Set that as a mini-goal.

[00:40:54] Ashley: More as a goal. The reason why I'm so interested with you saying that you're an extrovert is that a lot of my close friends are introverts, they just are, and I think it has something to do with art. It just happens.

[00:41:11] Jasmin: It's true yes.

[00:41:13] Ashley: How do I even begin to talk about this? In college, I was very jealous of introverts, and I really wanted to be an introvert, like really really bad.

[00:41:29] Jasmin: It's so interesting.

[00:41:30] Ashley: So bad I wanted to be an introvert. I would confide in my close friend all the time. I was like, "Listen, being an extrovert isn't even that great. Being an introvert is better because you get to be seen as more intelligent? Extroverts have this-- Extraversion can be seen as people who are invading people's privacy and personal space because we want to do things or whatever. [inaudible 00:42:08] despise being an extrovert. Because my friends were introverts and then when I moved back home, I didn't really have any friends from college who lived where I lived, so I was by myself, I tried to embrace introversion, more introverted ways, because of just like the circumstances or whatever.

Only the past couple of months, I've been more active in Discord and hanging out with people in voice chat, and I realized just how thirsty I've been for social interaction for the past three years. It's been great to be able to get off of work and know that there's people that I can hang out with in some way, shape, or form, even if it's just like us talking on the phone like we're right now. I say phone, but computer or whatever. My mom has made, because I live with my parents, my mom has made a comment where sometimes if I go to bed earlier, she will tell me to go back and get on the computer and laugh with my friends because she likes to hear me be happy.

[00:43:29] Jasmin: That's so sweet.

[00:43:30] Ashley: It is sweet, but then it's also sad because it's like, "Mom, have I just not laughed in the past three years?" Maybe that's it. Maybe because it's been so consistent that I've been getting to know professionals more and artists and just people and students and everyone. Sometimes you don't really know how badly you wanted or needed a thing until you have it back

[00:44:02] Jasmin: That is so true, yes.

[00:44:03] Ashley: Similar to how you don't know how good you have something until it's gone or whatever, it's the same concept. I definitely still think that I'm an extrovert, total. Identity crisis going on.

[laughter]

[00:44:24] Ashley: I definitely think that I'm still an extrovert. I think that when I have to survive in a situation by myself, I could take on a little bit more introverted ways. I think ideally, just like the past couple of months have shown me just being able to play video games with people on almost a nightly basis or just talk to someone about how I feel about something or just showing people my art. I was really really thirsty for that. It's interesting how the only way that this has been happening so frequently and consistently is because of corona.

[00:44:56] Jasmin: Yes, it's true.

[00:44:57] Ashley: If not for corona, everyone will be out doing their own thing, existing, like going out to pubs or whatever. Even though this virus has been awful and has wreaked awful havoc upon the whole world and taken away family members and stuff, the good that I've been able to find through this time period was just meeting really good people and being able to feed my soul in a way that it hasn't been fed in a long time. That's what I learned about myself so far this year [laughs]

[00:45:33] Jasmin: [laughs] That's very relatable.

[00:45:35] Ashley: Yes. It's nice to not feel alone. It sounds good [crosstalk]

[00:45:40] Jasmin: Brings us closer together even though we might not be in the same country, or city, or room but that doesn't even matter at this point anymore. Broken down so many walls, I think, to even do that first step and approach people maybe and just be more socially active with everyone that you might have not been before. It's difficult for this wave because everyone is kind of in a similar circumstance maybe in some way or the other. It makes a lot easier, I think, to become more open to that idea.

[00:46:17] Ashley: Yes, yes, yes, for sure. We're going to stop right here and take a little short break, but we'll be right back.

[music]

[00:46:48] Ashley: Welcome back to All Inclusive. Before the break, we talked about a bunch of stuff. I don't even know if I want to attempt to [laughs] summarize anything. Moving into the next topic, what's something that you wish you would have known before starting this year? I want everyone to know that it was Jasmin who wrote these deep questions, not me.

[00:47:20] Jasmin: [laughs] I know.

[00:47:21] Ashley: You having a hard time answering it is what you get. [laughs]

[00:47:25] Jasmin: I know. Because I always think it's nice to reflect on everything before moving on to the next year, so I really wanted to see how we would answer to this. It's pretty deep because usually, I don't get to answer anything like that on a daily basis. What would I've liked to know before. I think I should have known before that it's okay if I fail at some things, that I shouldn't set these high goals for myself and be like, "You need to achieve them right now and at this instant," and just be like, "Even if you've set these goals for yourself, you're not going to maybe achieve them, and that's okay."

I wish I didn't have these expectations for myself from the start of the year because, especially, every time the new year starts, everyone is like, "Oh, I need to have these goals." "What's your goal for this year, what do you want to achieve?" Having this setout plan. I never usually have that. With this year, I kind of, "Oh, let's have this for once. Let's see if I can make it." With this year not being very normal, I think it just threw me off a bit and this stuff I had in mind for myself. I wish I would have known before that maybe it's okay if I just try to wing it a bit instead of trying my hardest to stick to the plan that I had at the start. [laughs]

[00:48:58] Ashley: This year did not go according to plan at all I think for a lot of people. Trying not to be so hard on yourself despite everything is really hard. It's interesting that you brought out the failure thing. It's like what you wish you would have know that it's okay to do. Because it sounds like a no-brainer almost. Of course, it's okay to not hit goals, but I guess when you are ambitious and when you have goals for yourself, you feel like it's like you can't do anything but hit it. If you don't, [crosstalk]. Even if you make it close, it's not good enough sort of feeling, [laughs] which is awful.

[00:49:53] Jasmin: That's the thing because sometimes it wasn't even me setting these expectations for me. It wasn't even like just people around me saying, "Oh, your last project was so nice." Like from last year, for example, it was something I didn't know. "Oh, this is great. I can't wait to see what you do next." This sentence sometimes set up this little thing in my head and it's like, "What if my next thing will be shoot and then these people will be like, "Oh, there you go. She didn't make it. It looks crap. It's awful. She's a failure. Why did we even expect something nice."

Something in this kind of pressure is nice to have because, obviously, I'm really grateful when people are kind to me and I look at that and it really gives me strength, but at the same time puts an extra pressure onto myself that I need to do something good for my next project that I'm doing and it needs to be better than last time.

I learned to say that-- It's okay if it's not better than the last one, just chill. Nobody cares and nobody's going to go on my track record and be like, "Oh, I told you I'm expecting this thing from you, why didn't you do this?" It's not like this. It's just me and my head making up these scenarios that what people are thinking and what I should be doing. That probably adds to the list of things that I have learned about the way I think and feel about my own work versus what I tell people. My friends encourage them, but these encouragements don't ever apply for myself. They always said for [unintelligible 00:51:20] why suggest people should be feeling about their work or how they should treat themselves.

[00:51:27] Ashley: Yes. For sure, for sure. I think for me, something that I wish I would have reminded myself is my potential for progress because when you are in the trenches, just keeping your head down and doing work, it's easy to look at all the stuff that you have to do rather than the stuff that you've already done and how you've already improved. That can be a huge point of me getting down on myself because I'm like, oh, I want to be making work like the senior environment-artist person who's been working on it for five years.

If that's my goal or that's what I want to do rather than looking at how much progress I've made in the past year and a half or whatever, almost two years now, it's been a lot. It's hard to let myself win in that regard. I don't think a year and a half ago-- Or not even, I don't think, I know a year and a half ago, I could not do the stuff that I'm doing right now, and I wish that this year I would have given myself more pats on the back for the stuff that I have done because you're always afraid of this complacency sort of thing. I wish that I would've been nicer about congratulating myself for the stuff that I have done.

I think had I kept that in mind before I started this year that this year would have been a lot easier because a lot of my anxiety, looking through my journal from last year, a lot of my anxiety is about work. I was scared about not being able to meet my goals and I was being very avoidant with work and not really like, because I was afraid, I wasn't putting in time like I should have. Now that person definitely is still there when I meet challenges, but she's not there as much right now, because I've grown. I wish I would have reminded myself this at the beginning of the year where I've come from and how far I've come I think.

[00:53:59] Jasmin: Yes. That's super important. I think everyone should always keep that in mind to realize that you have grown and also appreciate yourself for having achieved that because it's not easy to change. It's not easy to adjust and learn things, especially when it's about your own traits. I've seen that myself as well because I had some traits that were difficult to get rid of, but I've been trying my hardest to get rid of them this year. It shows. I did change in some ways that I wouldn't have thought I could, but putting in that effort pays off.

It's important to remind yourself of that as well, not just be like, "Oh yeah, it's normal that I've done this. No, it's not. Some people don't maybe put the effort into improving in that way. Just giving yourself a pat on the shoulder is nice. [laughs]

[00:54:55] Ashley: Yes. If you can manage it, everyone out there will be a little bit more proud of yourself. It can be a uphill battle, but I think appreciating yourself is one of those things where it's like, it's really worth for you to put in that time to yourself, like that effort, that emotional effort for yourself.

[00:55:12] Jasmin: It's self-care after all, just like putting on a face mask or something [crosstalk].

[00:55:17] Ashley: Oh, yes.

[00:55:21] Jasmin: Moving on to wrapping up the year basically, is there something specific that you're grateful for, especially now that we are approaching the end? When you review everything that has happened? Is there something particular you're super grateful about?

[00:55:40] Ashley: Looking back at my 2020 goals, one of-- I think I read you a couple of them. I had do more blog posts on there, I had finish environments on there, I had study Japanese on there. What was not on there was starting a podcast.

[laughter]

[00:56:03] Jasmin: There you go.

[00:56:05] Ashley: What was not on there was starting a podcast, but I think it's one of those things that I am definitely grateful for, finishing out the year because it's been something that-- I've wanted to be a guest on a podcast before, and it was something that I was going to be trying to work towards, just trying to get my art out there and be seen as someone who knows what they're doing and someone that people can reach out to for advise or about situations and things like that so that I could be one day invited to come on a podcast and then 2020 did like a 180 on me. It was like, "What if you did it?" sort of thing. I wasn't expecting it. I don't know if you were expecting that either.

[00:56:44] Jasmin: No, I wasn't. Definitely not.

[laughter]

[00:56:48] Ashley: It all happened so fast.

[00:56:50] Jasmin: I know. It's crazy, but I'm so glad you were up for it. I guess we gave each other a nice push because there was the seed that was there, but not maybe the courage to act on it, and it's good to always have each other to do it because, by myself, it just would feel kind of weird, I don't know. There are people who obviously do it by themselves, but I think it's always such a nice energy to have two people from two different backgrounds, from two completely different parts of the world hosting this. It's something I didn't see before and then it's always this question, then why don't you just do it? If you don't see it, then do it.

[00:57:29] Ashley: For sure. It's been like a great experience so far, obviously getting to know you a lot better and getting to know people that we've had on a lot better and then just-- I don't know if anyone can relate or sense this, but I just love to talk to people, getting a chance to kind of talk about things intelligently, about things that I'm really concerned about or really interested in has been really great.

Then probably the second thing that I'm really grateful for has been, obviously, my support group with my friends because without my support group, with people like you and others that I could just go on and on mentioning, I could not have come as far as I have this year. Without the help of my mentors or whatever this year, I could not have made my project what it is right now.

I don't even know if I want to say sometimes. It feels like the difference between success and missing the mark is support in whatever sort of way. Whether that's financial, from family members, or like emotional from your friends or artistic from like mentors and colleagues and things like that. Being able to have that support has been unmatched as they say.

[laughter]

[00:59:04] Jasmin: I completely agree with this. For me the exact same, it's, on one hand, the podcast, because it's just such a great experience. I never thought it would be possible to do something like this by yourself, especially being somebody who listened to podcast all the time and then think that we could be live on the other side of this and having people listening to us, it's kind of surreal.

On the other hand, is also my friends and my family because without them-- This year especially, I've got to know so many new people that are able to talk to and open up to, which used to be super difficult for me and also being able to talk about these things on the podcast with you so openly helps me a lot. It's almost like some sort of therapy I think either way. Just to get these thoughts out there to articulate them as you said in a way that is different than just thinking about them yourself or just typing them out in the chat. It's really different, so that's why I'm super grateful about it. Another thing I'm really grateful about is how excited my mom always gets about the podcast. She's so sweet. She doesn't really understand English probably that well, but she still just listens to it for real. [laughs]

[01:00:25] Ashley: Oh really? Oh no, that's so cute.

[01:00:28] Jasmin: It always warms my heart, but she's generally so supportive. She always really supports what I do, which I think is very rare, and I'm really grateful that I have somebody like this in my life, and especially this year, she was a big part and how I could continue doing what I like, and actually never pressures me into doing anything that I don't enjoy, which is great. That's what I'm always grateful for. I guess that's also due to the fact that I have a super small family. It's basically just my mom. That's always something I'm grateful for every year when she's around.

[01:01:04] Ashley: For sure. I only just recently told my parents that I even had a podcast.

[01:01:08] Jasmin: Really?

[01:01:09] Ashley: Yes. I didn't tell them from the very beginning. I was just like, let me just run a couple of episodes, kind of drop, and then time went on and stuff happened, and I was like, maybe this is a good time. They seem pretty interested in it [inaudible 01:01:27]. I can listen to this while I'm riding the bike in the morning and I was like, oh, dad.

[laughter]

[01:01:35] Ashley: People from my day job or whatever have been really supportive about it, too. They think it's really cool.

[01:01:42] Jasmin: That's awesome.

[01:01:42] Ashley: [inaudible 01:01:42] do that. That's been really in that sense for sure.

[01:01:49] Jasmin: I think it's really a different, nice feeling when somebody who's not in the topic is even interested and excited about it. I think that's really sweet in a way. I also got a message from a schoolmate that I didn't see in like, I don't know how many years, and she just messaged me and was like, "Oh my god, it's so cool that you are co-hosting a podcast? I didn't think you would do this." I said, "Well, it's so nice." Just these random little tokens of appreciation, [unintelligible 01:02:20] sometimes. Now moving on to the even more philosophical question.

[01:02:28] Ashley: Oh, no. No more.

[01:02:30] Jasmin: Do you have any specific hopes and dreams for the next year? Because I think it's really important to dream. Even if those goals might seem a bit unattainable, I still think they're important to have because it's such a nice feeling just to be able to dream about things you might be doing next year or understand, I just think it's a really--[01:02:54] Ashley: Next year, I would like to finish this project that I'm working. I know that's weird to have it as like a hope and dream, but sometimes it gets so hard that it feels like a dream.

[01:03:07] Jasmin: It's completely valid.

[01:03:08] Ashley: I would love to have my project kind of done, hopefully, by mid-year, next year, like trying to give myself enough room just in case some horrible accident happens, hopefully not.

[01:03:21] Jasmin: Hopefully not.

[01:03:22] Ashley: Hopefully not. That would be great, and then after that, I would like to find some sort of level of employment sometime next year with my project, because the way that I'm planning on breaking it down, I'm hoping that'll make it will make my portfolio a lot more lush and hopefully catch the eye of someone sometime next year. That's kind of like my goal for next year.

Other than that, after we get, COVID treatment stuff, like vaccinations or stuff. I would love to take a trip somewhere. I have no idea where, but I would like to go somewhere. Maybe I can still go to Japan. Who knows what's going to happen? We could still go to Japan in October. That'll be so great. Then last, I'm going to try to take the Japanese language proficiency test again next December. I've taken it at a certain level already, but I want to do the next level up. It's in December. That's it for me. That's all I got.

[01:04:36] Jasmin: That's amazing goals I think. I'm here rooting for you all the way.

[01:04:41] Ashley: [laughs] Thank you. What about you? How are you doing?

[01:04:47] Jasmin: I think my number one goal is finishing uni because I have my deadline in January. It will basically count for the next year, I guess, even though I studied most of it this year, but I hope it will be done. I also have this image in my head how it should look like in the end. I really hope that won't end up just being a pipe dream and not come to reality, so I'll try my best to finish that. Second goal would be also employment because I've been doing freelance part-time on and off, but it's not the same like working somewhere, so I really want to decide where I want to work. If it's freelance, if it's in the studio, if I want to move. The moving question's one of the biggest ones probably because I have no idea of what COVID will be like next year, if it's that easy to even move away from here. That's an ongoing thing, but I hope that next year at this time, I'll be like, "It's all done. I'm confident wherever I am." Even if it's the same share, I don't care as long as I'm happy.

The third goal is also traveling because we wanted to go to Japan this year and even had everything booked, but it just didn't work out, obviously. Hopefully, it'd be amazing if it would also work next year autumn because I don't see it working out in spring.

[01:06:12] Ashley: No.

[01:06:12] Jasmin: That seems very unrealistic, even though people are saying that it might open up again, but I don't want to be the first batch of people going to travel somewhere.

[01:06:21] Ashley: For sure not.

[01:06:21] Jasmin: That's not in the cards. Traveling for definite because I just need to do it. I really miss doing it. I miss traveling.

[01:06:31] Ashley: We must see the world.

[01:06:33] Jasmin: Exactly. Especially now, I just really want to do it while I can. I just have little girl's thoughts, so when I'm in Japan, I always wanted to do specific fashion-related things there because it's my other passion. I just want to do these things I've been dreaming to do for so long and thought.

On a good note, it would be, I think just expanding my time into looking into other hobbies and art. I've touched on this before one time, and since that conversation we had, it really sparked something in my head. Because I realized that I have a real lack of this in my life this year, especially. I just made art my hobby, which is not healthy at all. Racing up and starting to read a lot more again. Also, I want to start learning languages again. Cooking is starting to take more time in my daily life activities as well. It's just something I want to expand on next year and have dedicated times to my hobbies so I can separate art a bit from it and not feel that art is the only thing that my life has right now.

[01:07:48] Ashley: It's all about that balance and having other things to do is very good for sure. I'm sure you'll find something to do. You did say that you wanted to learn Japanese. That was one of your-- I am biased obviously, but what a great language to pick. What a great place to start.

[01:08:09] Jasmin: Exactly.

[01:08:11] Ashley: No, no, no. Please do it. Please. I'm obviously really supportive. I know I've spoken to Ryan briefly about the same thing, and I just want more people to be able to speak Japanese so I can speak Japanese to them, so that I can live my best life, obviously.

[01:08:29] Jasmin: Yes, exactly. That'd be amazing. I'm also looking to Korean at the moment.

[01:08:35] Ashley: I am learning Korean.

[01:08:37] Jasmin: Really?

[01:08:38] Ashley: Yes, I am learning Korean also. The grammar is very similar. If you learned one, like if you learned Japanese really well, it's easy for you to hop over. Totally, I'm going to do that.

[01:08:49] Jasmin: That's nice. That's a good motivator to have, I think.

[01:08:52] Ashley: Even some of the vocabulary words are very similar actually

[01:08:58] Jasmin: I'll set myself to it. I will do it. I'll set some time.

[01:09:00] Ashley: I believe. These are good goals for the next year too, and they're all doable.

[01:09:04] Jasmin: You too.

[01:09:06] Ashley: We got this.

[01:09:08] Jasmin: We both got this. We will cheer each other on.

[laughter]

[01:09:12] Ashley: Yes. I feel like that's it, so there's no need for any final thoughts or takeaways. I'll just move into the thing we always end on. If you guys would like to suggest someone to join us on the podcast for next year. I know we already have a running list of people who have agreed to come on, that we would like to get on and schedule in next year. If anyone else has any suggestions for that, please send us an email at allinclusivepdcst@gmail.com. That's, allinclusive, no spaces, P-D-C-S-T-@gmail.com. They can be 2D artists, 3D artists, basically anyone who works in game development, we would love to have them on and have a little chat.

[01:09:57] Jasmin: Thank you for joining us on the 4th episode of All Inclusive, the last for this year. We shall see you next year, hopefully. We hope that you had just as much fun listening to us as we did talking. You can find us on a couple of different social media channels, and you can find the links to that in the description or the main page of whatever you are listening on right now. The channels you can find us on are Twitter, YouTube, and Spotify. Thanks again, and we hope you'll join us for another episode of All Inclusive.

[music]

[01:10:35] [END OF AUDIO]