Episode 2: Sandra Soh

 

[music]

[00:00:18] Ashley: Welcome to the second episode of The All-Inclusive podcast. My name is Ash and I'm an environment artist out here in North Carolina in the United States of America.

[00:00:28] Jasmin: My name is Jasmin. I'm a 3D environment artist living in Cologne, Germany. Currently, I'm freelancing and also attending university. Ashley and I wanted to start this podcast because we saw a need for a different kind of podcast hosted by different people with guests of different backgrounds and passions.

That was the main purpose, and premise we had for this podcast was to make it feel diverse, but not in that preachy way, because we want to include diversity because it's how well the industry is. It's important for us to normalize and put topics and focus that our guests actually are passionate about and talk that about, first and foremost.

[00:01:07] Ashley: For sure. I think going off of that, the main goal of the podcast is to uplift people that you may not be seeing all the time and just people that you may not be aware of, and not just people who are in one part of the world, or in one part of the industry, or not just people who do this one specific thing, but we want to spread a light on a bunch of different kinds of people and focusing on just the more positive aspects of it, because I really do think that there is a huge benefit to seeing someone who looks like you or someone who has a similar background to you or similar backstory, just succeeding and doing really well in their chosen field. I think that's really important.

[00:01:58] Jasmin: Yes, exactly, because representation really matters. We want this podcast to be actually a good source of information for others and a place where you can hear about experience from people who might look like yourself and have the same background, as Ashley said. Seeing that you're all working maybe towards a similar goal and hearing about how other people might have got to that, because it can be a bit intimidating maybe, especially if you're starting out or even are in industry to see that others got so far in the industry in a super unattainable almost to get there.

With this podcast, we want to give everyone a place to talk about this and a resource that anyone can relate to at any point of their career, I think.

[00:02:41] Ashley: For sure, it also seems like fun to start a podcast like this. It's a lot of work. It's a lot of work trying to coordinate with artists and try to get them on and making sure that we're talking about things that are equally meaningful and feel comfortable with talking about, but it's just like a little fun side project that we're both doing.

That's for how often we're going to be doing this podcast. It looks like we're going to have an episode released on the first Tuesday of the month so far. I don't want to make that like a hard line, but that's going to be our goal with releasing just once a month for right now. If we get super, super comfortable with it, getting in the groove of it really well, then maybe we can squeeze another episode at the same time or whatever. Right now, we're only going to do one episode a month.

[00:03:45] Jasmin: That leads us to our today's special guest. This is Sandra Soh. She works at Square Enix Montreal as a 3D artist. Previously, she also worked at an outsourcing studio, Passion Republic, and has been involved in games such as Marvel's Spider-Man, Mortal Kombat 11, Uncharted, The Lost Legacy and The Last Of Us Part II. Thank you for joining us today.

[00:04:06] Sandra Soh: Thank you for coming on.

[00:04:09] Ashley: Hey.

[laughter]

[00:04:13] Sandra: First, I have to say, thank you for having me. I remember when Jasmin and I had a call about this. She told me she had an idea about it. I was like, "Yes, yes, we need to have this podcast. I really believe in what you guys are doing, like the basis of the podcast, and I'm super happy to be here, talk to you guys about it.

[00:04:38] Jasmin: We're super excited to have you. I was so relieved when I talked to you actually, and you thought this is a good idea. Even more when you were like, "Yes, I want to come on." I was just super cheering and that we managed to get you on the podcast. Here we are finally.

Just in general, I'd be super interested and I'm sure our listeners too to hear about how you actually got into 3D or working in the industry, what was your initial moment where you're like, "Yes, that's what I want to do for maybe the rest of my life," but we don't want to be just so final, but that you were like, "I want to do this so badly, and it's so fun."

[00:05:20] Sandra: This is the best question. I love asking other artists about it. The thing is, I was, first and foremost, a consumer of games. That's how everybody starts with it, but I didn't actually think I could make a career in it. I went to art school. The focus of that art school was thinking more about films, about short stories and animations and that kind of thing. When I came out, I was like, "Okay, I'm going to go into films. Let's go see how it goes." Also, I don't know that bit of info for our audience.

I was actually starting from Malaysia, so it's this- I don't want to say small, but it's a country in Southeast Asia that was, at a time, I think it was six, seven years ago, the games industry was small. It's not even that big everywhere else, but it's getting bigger, but at that time, it was small. We're talking maybe, I don't know, three or four studios, something like that.

The only reason I got into games was because when we did a portfolio review, the boss of one of the companies came to just- he was looking over everyone's stuff and he sent me a message after and he was like, "Hey, what do you think about joining games?" I was like, "Can I? Can I? I don't know." Then we had lunch and we talked about it.

I was like, "Okay, let's give it a try." I didn't have film studios knocking on my door, so I was like, "Yes, why not. It sounds really fun."

That's how I got my first job in 3D art, 3D games art. It was a bit of a stroke of luck, because there were not so many studios. Even if I had wanted to apply, I would have been there anyway, and they were hiring. I was really happy about that. That's how I got into it.

[00:07:28] Jasmin: Awesome. That sounds really nice, especially that you had somebody that introduced you to it and opened that door for you. That's amazing to have that, especially at that age. Did you noticed any differences when you got into the studio? Because since at school you learned more about the film side, and now it was games. Was that a difficult transition for you, or did you get used to it pretty quickly?

[00:07:52] Sandra: I think, at the time, I had this mindset that games, they had to be really optimized, as opposed to film. As an artist, I was like, "Oh, I want it to be the most graphically beautiful thing." Luckily, at the time, we were starting to get into this trend. Consumers had more power in our PCs, we had more ability to show something.

It was not film level, but I was starting to realize that the challenge of it was getting it to still look good with less. That was fun. I loved the interactivity people have with our work and in games, when you go into 3D and people can stay at a certain spot longer because they want to walk around because they think it's fun to stay there, which you don't really get in film. That was the two differences I felt. Yes, I hope that answers your question.

[00:08:57] Jasmin: Yes, definitely. Yes. No, I think that's great. It's also interesting to hear that on the side of what the game industry is like in Malaysia and how did you experience since you said it was pretty small. Back then even, if you go seven years ago, in general, it's been quite pretty small outside of the US, as the other experience, in Germany it's so small that not many people know about many studios here. I wonder what it's like in Malaysia. How did you experience that time there?

[00:09:31] Sandra: As we both know, because it's so small, you start to be like, "Okay, am I going to stay here?" Your family is there, your friends are there, but for work, how does that work? It's not as if I think like now, maybe both you and Ashley, you have more experience freelancing and that's the next step that people can maybe stay where they are and they can work from overseas, but that wasn't really that big back then. Studios were not prepared to send work that way to individuals, I think. It was small, but the people-- I think that the community- because it's so small, they were so energetic about it, because everyone was in it. Not because you could make a lot of money, but because we wanted to do it and we were passionate and we were just young and trying to get, figure something out about that.

[00:10:32] Jasmin: I think that's actually really nice. As you said that nowadays we have this option to maybe stay in our country and stay at home and not leave it. Obviously, you made the decision to leave Malaysia at some point because you relocated to Montreal last year. I was wondering what it was like for you to relocate to a completely new country and a job at the same time.

I can imagine it's a huge change, especially in what made you decide to take that step. Because as I can hear, you actually enjoyed working in Malaysia too, but what made you think that, "Okay, I'm going to now pack everything open, try a new adventure basically." [chuckles]

[00:11:16] Sandra: I had done a lot of work in Malaysia. As you said, I loved my job. I thought the people were great. I liked my company. I don't know. Do you mean back in open a bit in Florida, you guys how do you feel as artists, and do you feel like you often have that thing on the back of your mind saying like you're curious and you want to know what it's like moving outside and finding out how to work in other studios?"

[00:11:46] Jasmin: Yes, definitely. I'll let you start, Ashley. [laughs]

[00:11:50] Ashley: Oh, man. I think, my perspective is on a little bit on the outside because I "haven't necessarily broken in yet." For me, there's always that question of "what if?" There's a huge part of the industry obviously here in America, in North America.

Even trying to think beyond what is here in America for me, like, oh, what are the possibilities outside of America? What are the possibilities in places like Montreal and Vancouver and England and other places and things like that? I think you always have- even though you may be really pushing forward really hard on the thing that you want to be doing right now, I think that there's always a little bit of "what if," I could go a little bit further with it that happens.

[00:12:52] Jasmin: Yes, definitely. I agree with that. Always this question, I think, should I go for this or should I go for that and what will happen in maybe 10 years or five years, even next year? Always the thing, because it's always the question in mind, especially not graduating soon, it's even more pressing and it's stressful in a way, but having experienced going to Montreal for that small shop time of six months, I did exactly that. I listened to the little voice of man and was like, "Okay, let's just try it. It's okay. If it goes wrong, it goes wrong. You can come back home. It's not like you're leaving forever. Nothing is forever,it's okay."

It was a nice experience. I think, even if it didn't go well, I would have appreciated it just as much because I listened to that instinct and may just try it out and exploded a bit. That made me more brave maybe from my future decisions as well. It won't be as hard to take that step. Maybe it will still be really difficult, but it's like, you know that you'll be fine. Maybe even if you're not, you have a place to go back to at some point, if you want to. I know I can come back home if something goes wrong locally.

[00:14:04] Sandra: Yes, I think it's a bit like you don't want to live with the regret. That's hard. That's hard to carry. I don't know if you can feel me. I know it sounds weird to say you were scared to find a job, but it was immense. Like, okay. I put my portfolio together. I have to be sure I put my resume and then send it out.

Honestly, I don't know what I expected. I tell you guys straight. I was thinking maybe I'm giving up my career for this because, am I going to end up working in a cafe? Not that there's anything wrong, actually. I wanted to try that for some time just to detox. Wasn't anybody not going to hire me? I was just going to be like that.

[00:14:53] Ashley: Yes.

[00:14:54] Jasmin: I completely get that. It's a big risk, and it's also giving up a commitment on one hand and going into new commitment, and that's definitely scary. It's a really reasonable thought to have. You went in a big risk in that sense, especially giving up a job that you enjoy. That's the big thing, I guess.

[00:15:15] Sandra: Yes, I think for artists who are super scared. Yes.

[00:15:18] Ashley: [laughs] What I was going to say was that I think that something that anyone can relate to, in your story, up to this point, is like, when you make such a big move like that and then on top of that have to find work, there's a huge amount of vulnerability that goes into it, where it's like, this is my body of work, this is the best that I have done up until this point and just sending it out, humbly. If you would look at my portfolio, that would make me really happy feeling. It's really vulnerable, because anyone could just do anything. They could say, "Oh, well, look at it, and we can talk to you."

Which is another whole can of worms, or they can just not say anything, and then you feel hurt because you've heard nothing. It's hard, applying for work is hard. It's like you have to know how to cope with it at the same time, especially, in your case, where it's like, I'm moving halfway across the world. Then I have to do this thing that's already hard.

[00:16:37] Sandra: Yes. You never know. It's like life, you don't even know what's happening next week, tomorrow. Just try to pick what you feel you can live with and what you feel like even if you come back, like Jasmin said, you come back, it's not a failure. You tried your best, you did something, and you can try again. No one says it's one time. Yes, this is what I try to tell myself at a time.

[laughter]

[00:17:15] Jasmin: That's completely reasonable, I think, because everything in life isn't like an instant. You can't get everything right on the first try. It takes several tries, it takes some people 100 tries. At some point, you'll get there. It's a long path, and everyone's path looks completely different. I think it's really good to hear that what your experience was like and many might relate to that too. I completely understand what you're saying. It's reassuring, even for me to hear that.

[00:17:47] Sandra: Hopefully, we'll have more moments like this where people can come on and talk about their doubt. I love that, because I think so often because of social media pressure or whatever. It's not necessarily a bad thing. It's a good thing to want to put your best self forward. However, on the flip side, there's two sides to every coin. Your favorite artists have doubt and your favorite artists have failures. It's [inaudible 00:18:18] to hear someone who's working at your level to be like, "Yes, I was scared the whole time." That's good. You love that.

[laughter]

[00:18:28] Sandra: Oh, boy, Jasmin could tell you we've had conversations where I've seen that a lot.

[laughter]

[00:18:36] Jasmin: It’s basically to say to each other  that, "I'm scared," we'd be like, yes, "I'm scared too," and it's just like going back and forth with bad things, but it's nice because afterwards, you feel like you're not alone with this. You might have got stalled those issues, but it still feels good to be like, "Okay, I'm not by myself with this. I'm not just sitting in the room and having these thoughts and not having a way out of it. You're together in that room and thinking about it.

[laughter]

[00:19:01] Sandra: Together being like sipping your coffee and getting anxious together.

[00:19:05] Jasmin: Exactly.

[laughter]

[00:19:10] Sandra: No, I had a question for Ashley because you mentioned earlier--

[00:19:13] Ashley: Uh-oh, question for me.

[laughter]

[00:19:14] Sandra: No, no, because you mentioned earlier, and I really felt like that was a really good point to bring up about when you make- there's a cost when you make an application somewhere and you send something to somebody and you're vulnerable. How do you deal with that? What's your go-to feeling for that?

[00:19:34] Ashley: Oh man. I am currently in this phase where I'm doing a portfolio push. So I can't answer a question, but I also have it applied in a second. What I would try to do and what I will likely try to do again is a couple things. One, surround myself with supportive people, for sure. That's something that I've been trying to do for the past couple of years, trying to get people from different slices of life, finding people who are at my level, who are struggling with the same things, trying to find people who are, for lack of a better word, better at things than I am, are more experienced in things than I am and trying to get some knowledge from them, enter into them and have them as a point of resource, then also finding people that- or sometimes, honestly, just being found by other people who are looking to me to help them with things and cultivating that community.

Because I know that without community I could not have come as far as I have, since I graduated at all. Sometimes when you are working on your art and you're working on your portfolio, or just on yourself in any kind of aspect, it can be so easy, especially right now. It can be so easy to feel by yourself, because you're at the computer slogging away in a dark room four hour sessions. Your mother hasn't seen you in 12 hours.

[laughter]

[00:21:18] Ashley: and she forgets what you look like and things like that. That can really take a toll on you as a person. Having people to reach out to and be like, "Hey, I'm really frustrated because I sent out a bajillion or whatever number, applications that I haven't heard anything back from any of them, having someone to talk to and be like, "Keep going, don't give up on things, this is how it works right now. That's the not nice part about it, but it doesn't mean that there isn't a place for you." Talking to people like that helps. Then honestly, sometimes I just turn off my brain and just [unintelligible 00:21:59].

Usually, because sometimes, especially if it's an application where it's like, okay, you need to know my name, cool. Name goes in here you need to know-- I have a link to my portfolio, copy-paste. You need a cover letter, make some changes to the cover letter that I have written up. Make it a little tailored to where it needs to go, copy and paste it in and send it. Then try to get through 2 today or 5 today or 10 today, or whatever.

Sometimes you really just have to remove emotions from it sometimes and then heal yourself after [inaudible 00:22:39]. That's what I found has worked, because if you stay in there emotionally, it can be really dark and hard, for sure.

[00:22:50] Sandra: Yes, you can feel like you being-- This is something I felt, but I think is a bit common maybe. I felt personally rejected even though, of course, I know they don't know me.

[laughter]

 [00:23:08] Sandra: No, yes. I really hear you, especially writing cover letters. It's pretty tough.

[00:23:16] Ashley: Everyone's favorite part really. Everyone I've spoken with, they love writing cover letters.

[laughter]

[00:23:22] Jasmin: It's the weirdest thing ever. It's like some weird like advertising person, like being at people's house and you're just like, "Buy this coffin. It's so great."

[laughter]

It sounds so fake to me.

[00:23:43] Ashley: I know not a single soul who loves cover letters.

[00:23:46] Jasmin: Let's abolish them.

[laughter]

[00:23:53] Sandra: For real, we need to talk to some HR peeps and ask them on the other side, do they like reading cover letters, like what's that? She should ask them.

[00:24:00] Ashley: I've never experienced some people who do like it because baby, it could help them pick out the people who are actually trying versus who are just copy-pasting the same thing to everyone and using the same way. I don't know. I'm sure someone has better insight on that than me. My kid would love if they were gone. If you're listening, if you're listening games industry…

[00:24:31] Jasmin: Sending this into the universe.

[laughter]

[00:24:35] Ashley: The artists have spoken. More cover letters. Yes. Moving on from that, I had a question for you. Do you have any specific work aspirations at this point? Has it changed since your first job?

[00:25:00] Sandra: This one's a pretty tough question for me to answer because one time, I feel like they haven't changed. I still really love art, I still really love games. I don't feel like that's going to change for a long time. On the second part, I feel like I've been exposed to a lot more about games as a whole and my role in them and making them. For me, that perspective change has brought more questions for me. [chuckles] It's not like I don't want to be a 3D artist or do something else. Now, I said since I moved, and the team I'm currently in, I'm being exposed to a lot of different parts that I wasn't before.

When I talk about different parts, I mean how closely we work with game designers or level designers, the animation and audio. Even also, partly management of the games. From all these things, I start to feel like the main thing is, I want to be useful. I always want to be useful. What I don't want is to be in a team and not be useful to that team. First, I hope that what I'm useful at is what I also like doing, which is 3D art, but I'm open to be like, "okay, let's modify a bit if you feel like," and I can learn. The whole process is, we're learning so much more. I'm not going to say I'm going to jump into animation just because they need someone.

It's not to say that it's so easy to switch, but it's more like- how do you call this? opening up my mind to being like, "okay, maybe 3D art can be a solution in different ways." Having that conversation with our designers maybe being-- It's two ways. You can give the brief and we can have a discussion. Maybe we can say, "Oh, but we can do this or that." Because I start to realize actually, maybe- not maybe, a lot of different people from a lot of different parts, even among 3D artists, we won't always have the same solution. That's what I love about 3D art.

I can come in, Jasmin can be like, "No, I think this could be the solution for-- If it's stylized, we could save on the cost of something render-wise," or I could be like, "Oh, no, but we could also do this and that." I'm not really sure if this is answering the question about specific work aspirations, but it's more just finding out. There's so much more. I can say, yes, it's not that-- I'm still trying to figure out what the next step is, but just going from this is what I'm trying to do.

[00:27:50] Ashley: For sure. I think part of the reason why I asked that question is, I'm trying to think of what my specific career aspirations are. I think, as time has gone on, a lot of not necessarily expectations but a lot of ideas that I had about what I wanted before have definitely changed. Sometimes people start working, and they're like, "Oh, man, I might be a mid-level environment artist right now, or a mid-level, whatever right now, but it's actually my goal to be an art director," stuff like that. Trying to think about what that is, because I'm with you and your perspective on it. It's just, I think, I enjoy the work.

I just want to be a part of a team that does cool stuff and being useful. I'm not sure if I'm with the "climbing up the ladder" thing all the time, grind. I don't know if I want that.

[00:28:54] Sandra: The ladder would be short, though for artists.

[laughter]

I'm serious. Just like some people think, "Okay, intern and then junior, and senior, and then what comes after senior, up to senior lead, and then what? What if you don't want to be an art director? That's a short ladder.

[00:29:14] Ashley: It's like how do you reconcile with what you think you should want. I think there's a pressure to constantly want more and constantly want to push, hire, hire. Yes, but sometimes you're just like, "I just want to help people make cool stuff.", and solve cool problems. That's fine. I'm glad you brought that up, because it's very a down-to-earth perspective. It doesn't feel like--

[laughs] Not lofty and hopefully, that doesn't sound bad, but it [inaudible 00:29:50] human to just be like, "I just want to make cool stuff with cool people." That's cool.

[00:29:56] Sandra: How do you feel about it, Jasmin?

[00:29:59] Jasmin: It's interesting, because when I talked to several people who have been in the industry for a while, that scared me a bit, to be honest, they were saying the same. It's like the ladder is pretty short. Then when you reach senior and you want to go higher, you have to go out direct. Then you're stuck in meetings most of the time.

Then that really puts off people because they don't get to do art anymore. That's what I'm most scared about because I can't ever imagine myself sitting and having meetings all day and not doing art anymore. I enjoy working with people together, giving them feedback, getting feedback, and not just telling people what to do in that sense, I guess.

Maybe it's because I'm also still pretty new and would like some guidance. That's the one thing I think I would like to instill in life because it's so fun to be creative and be productive. That's the one thing that connects us as artists because we like to make something, that's from our hands, just things from our mind and ideas and having an impact on a project. That visual way is something I've really liked.

I'm a bit unsure even what my aspirations would be. Even now, instead, I actually said, you sit and think about it and want to figure it out. It's important to have them down, I think, sometimes, especially when you at the start of your career because you want to get a job or be on a project that fulfills maybe what you would like to do at some point.

For me, it's really difficult sometimes to pin that down because I do want to have an impact, but also want to be productive and do things and learn stuff. It's difficult, I guess. It's like you said, and it was interesting to hear that you being so far in your career have that same thought process when you're awake.

[00:31:43] Sandra: Maybe, it never goes away. I really--

[00:31:46] Jasmin: That could be it

[00:31:48] Sandra: Yes, actually I realized something about the first question that Ash asked about specific work aspirations, and maybe I have another point about that because I realized maybe other artists, I haven't spoken to enough artists about this. My portfolio is very- the style is realistic, but it's varied in what I have.

Sometimes I find it hard to market myself because there's lots of character, there's a bit of props, a bit of environment. Maybe I didn't put up the environments, but to the industry, it's mixed. That's a bit difficult because I wouldn't market myself as a generalist because, to me, a generalist-- That changes according to the studio. A generalist would be someone who does also the animation, maybe the effects and rigging, so a real generalist. That's what I think, but more and more we're getting specific-- Maybe I'm considered a generalist now, but then you have to pick between like stylized and realistic.

It starts to become really specific, and that's something that I'm still struggling with at the moment. That's something I just felt was like if anyone else is feeling that I'm in the same boat.

[00:33:10] Ashley: It's something that goes through my mind a lot. I'm not sure if it's just work-culture pressure or just people. I think a lot of people want to make sure that you're not settling too, but sometimes making a decision to stay in the lane that you're in isn't necessarily settling. Sometimes that's just what you want. That shouldn't be seen as a lesser decision. It's still a viable way to go about your career, for sure. Yes, we're going take a short break, and we'll be right back.

We're back. Right before the break, we were talking about if Sandra had any specific job aspirations or anything like that. Now, I am really interested in your relationship with imposter syndrome, especially working at such a high level and contributing to big projects as you do, like how do you cope with imposter syndrome, do you even get it, which feels like it's a silly question, but sound not everyone does? I would really be interested to know anything about that. Any perspectives there?

[00:35:06] Sandra: Well, first, if there are artists out there without imposter syndrome, let's have tea because I want to get some of that-- the vibes because I know Jasmin knows, because we talk a lot about that. She probably knows that I'm a nefarious imposter syndrome character. It's really bad for me because I've worked on projects and felt like I was happy with the results of what I did, but still at the same time, I always feel like, "Oh, maybe it was a fluke. At the time, I could do that. Can I do that now?" I guess, maybe at the base, it's worrying too much about what people digest or get from my art, and what they think of me without really knowing me.

I'm not really worried about my friends thinking that I can't do what I do because we talk about our art a lot, and I think we're genuine and we're valid and we talk about our struggles enough to be like, "Yes, nobody's worried too much about that." Especially, I think, when it comes to interviews, when it comes to jobs, and having to sell-- I don't know if we can say selling ourselves as artists.

I know a lot of people that might sell themselves short, myself included, because they're being asked like, "Oh, can you do this, this, this, this?" Even for something like a job application that says something like responsible team player, or something like that, and then you're just like, "I am a responsible team player. Or am I?"

[laughter]

[00:37:00] Sandra: Like, "Maybe I should send a survey to everybody and have them tell me like from a range of 1 to 10." It's not so bad but definitely, because games are not-- Unless you're like Lucas Pope, and you make one game by yourself. Like [unintelligible 00:37:18] or something. It's always a team effort. It's always like a mix of different people coming together. It's rare to be like, "Oh, I was in charge of this thing, and I'm the sole owner of it." It can be like, "Oh, if you leave me alone, what is it supposed to look like?"

Even without feedback from people, even if you're working on your own pieces, and if you don't get any feedback from people, yes, maybe that's what it looks like. Sometimes you can step back from something and be like, "This was not my best work." Yes, I'm not sure. I feel like I'm going off on a tangent about this. It's two different things. It's like imposter syndrome for work and imposter syndrome about personal work, right? How do you feel about that, Ash?

[00:38:09] Ashley: Man, I think there's a lot of landmines there, with imposter syndrome. There's no other real way to talk about it because I've seen artists that I look up to talk about how they sometimes feel that they're not worthy of the success that they've had so far, or how they're not worthy of people looking to them as a resource of information or whatever, and it's hard. I think imposter syndrome plagues people who are trying to improve. If a person doesn't care about improving anything, like if you were trying to learn the guitar, but you don't really care. Right?

Like if you're trying to learn the guitar but you don't really care, you're not really going to have a thought about like, "What if I'm not as good as I think I am? Or as other people think I am?" I'm not really sure about how you-- I don't think you get rid of it. I think you just have to reach out to people. Sometimes you have to ride that wave too, I think. Just knowing that you're going to feel like this for a second. It might be like a week and a half or whatever, but then knowing that that wave passes. I don't know if-- I see Jasmin nodding her head like she understands this. I don't know if you have any-- If you also have any little anecdotes about imposter syndrome for yourself.

[00:40:08] Jasmin: I really relate to both of you because I have this every time I finish a project, even when I finish like a small part of a project, and I look at it and I'm like, "Yes, I don't know if I really did this properly, or this right." Then people tell me, "Oh, no, you did a good job." Then I'm like, "Yes, but do you really mean this or you're just saying this because you're my friend, or you just want to be nice about it, or [crosstalk] believe you?" [laughs]

It's like, similar to when you were a kid, and then your mom gives you a compliment about anything you do, but you're like, "You're my mom. I know you mean well, but like, is it really that good?" [unintelligible 00:40:44] just like with friends now too. It's like I always doubt myself, and if people are just being nice to me because they like me and don't want to hurt my feelings maybe, and it's a constant circle of that. I think like Ashley also said, it's important to maybe have a bit of that because it really drives you to maybe push a bit further.

I think to a certain extent, it's healthy to have this self-reflection and be like, "Okay, I have room to improve. I have things to learn. I'm not there yet completely." That really gets you maybe to the next milestone you have for yourself, but sometimes it can be super unhealthy to balance that. I think there's no perfect way to be like, "Oh, yes, I have a healthy amount of imposter syndrome, I can deal with this now. You just get blessed with more or less of that. It's a difficult thing to deal with, but what helps me sometimes is just to remind myself that not everything I do needs maybe, this affirmation that I've done it completely right, I've done it wrong.

I just did it because I enjoyed it, I like what I'm doing, and just think about the bigger picture that I'm doing art because I enjoy doing. It's for myself a bit too, and not that I have to prove something. I think that sometimes may be the case with imposter syndrome. That you want to prove to others that, "I'm capable of doing this, and I'm believing in what I'm doing." Yes, it's hard to grasp in a way.

[00:42:14] Ashley: Sorry. I think you brought up some really good things there. Like three, if I can remember the third thing. I heard at least three really good things in there that you mentioned. I think finding a way to push imposter syndrome from this really negative, harmful thing to yourself, and more into self-reflection, that's a bit more neutral, is really, really important. It's really good that you brought that up because self-reflection, in a neutral sense, does not hurt you.

It's just taking inventory of things that went well, things that didn't go well, and it's not being on the other side with how imposter syndrome can be. Where it's like, "I don't deserve this." That's very self destructive. I think that's a good point, and then your other point about worrying about if every one is just telling you this because you're friends or whatever, or they don't want to crush you, or whatever.

I actually had that feeling recently, and I have a friend who, whenever I would bring this up to them, they'd be like, "Well, it's hard for so and so many people to all tell you the same lie. Like everyone's lying? Like every single person that you've shown your project to has lied the exact same way, and has used the exact same language to describe this thing you're working on? That seems a little bit far fetched, don't you think?" Then it's like, "Oh, well, I guess you're right." If someone's going-- If you cultivated that community that you have trust with to give you that feedback, then you just have to trust it.

Just trust that when I show things to this person, they're going to tell me, "Hey, maybe you should check out your values on this material or whatever." Then when it's good and looks nice, that they'll tell you. That's the second really good point that you brought up. The third really good point that you brought up, which I remember when I think of this, is that sometimes it really-- You don't have to be always so critical about every single thing, which is, I don't know, that might be not a popular opinion or whatever, but I think sometimes it's more about just doing, and just progress.

Sometimes just doing the thing is the progress, rather than not doing the thing, that's not progress. Because if you don't even try, then there's no potential for progress there. I think those are great things to bring up, Jasmin.

[00:45:19] Jasmin: Thank you. Definitely, that also relates to what Sandra mentioned earlier with taking the risk to go somewhere else and think about, "What if it applies to this case too?" Because if you don't try, then you don't know what might come out of it in the end.

[00:45:35] Sandra: I feel like, yes, I'm not sure if it applies to that, but also, from listening to both of you, I feel like imposter syndrome is also based on two other points, which is that the imposter-- Well, the healthy way would be the imposter being you're just comparing it to your best self. Hopefully, we've all improved and felt that way. I think also a lot of it is dealing with the imposter being the idealized what is the ideal senior 3D artist or lead? What kind of values would this person have?

It's a Frankenstein that I build from listening to podcast about other artists that I look up to, and I'm like, "Oh, yes, they can draw as well as this, or sculpt as well as that. They have the texture artist of this, skills of this artist." In the end, it becomes this checklist, like, "I'm not going to be a lead or a senior if I'm not exactly like this amazing mythological, ideal artist." [chuckles] Which is very discouraging, and it's not healthy at all. Yes. Oh, boy. [laughs] [crosstalk].

[00:46:50] Ashley: Yes, I know. [laughs] I realized that you questioned in there was a heavy one because I want to know, obviously, which is why I asked the question.

[00:47:04] Jasmin: No, it was a great question.

[00:47:06] Ashley: Yes, I know. Yes, for sure. Just anything you can do to not put yourself down, I think is what I'm hearing. Sometimes it's just about pushing through that, and having support, always support. I'm sure none of us could get as far as we've gotten without it. Having people, or a friend or someone to talk to you about whatever really, really helps, for sure.

[00:47:38] Jasmin: Exactly.

[00:47:40] Sandra: If you're not the one doing the job, someone else is going to do it. So you might as well apply.

[00:47:46] Ashley: Exactly.

[00:47:47] Sandra: Why not? You're the one, the first filter saying like, "I'm not going to be able to do this because I'm not perfect, but like, somebody's going to get it."

[laughter]

[00:48:00] Jasmin: [unintelligible 00:48:00] that's true. You should be more confident about things. I think that's the big thing as well. Just do it. Not overthinking it too much.

[00:48:10] Sandra: I'll get a tattoo of this, guys. [unintelligible 00:48:12] I'm going to get it somewhere.

[laughter]

[00:48:19] Jasmin: As a little closing question, I personally was super interested to hear about your experience compared to working in an outsourcing studio and working in-house in a studio, because I have no idea really, what the experience was like for you, how you felt about it. Is there anything you enjoy more or less about either one? Yes, I just would be super happy if you could talk about that a bit with us.

[00:48:47] Sandra: Yes, for sure. It's really interesting for me, I think, because even though they both deal in games, and we handle the same things in both, for me, 3D art, but it's such a different experience that it's hard to know where to start. In outsourcing, you're really focused a lot on the visual aspects of it. You're almost going really-- You put a microscope on what you're doing, but you don't know how well it ties into everything. You also get to touch so many different projects, you get to touch so many different things in a shorter time span.

I could do maybe two or three different projects within a year. I think, at most, it would be about a year for a project because that's how the cycles could be. For an in-house core team, you have a lot of different considerations. Sometimes when you're done, it doesn't mean-- You're done with some specific task, it's not really something that you won't come back to and revise. It's not that often that you would send something back to outsourcing for them to revise something that they've done that has been signed off already. So, that's one thing.

It's often overlooked by maybe a lot of different people when they feel like-- Like for artists, when you want to questioning yourself, "Do I want to work in outsourcing, or do I want to work in core teams?" Understand that it's two very different skills when you go into it because I can say, if you're the kind of artist that your main goal is maybe you want to spend a lot of time doing art from different projects, and that's where you want to grow, go into-- I'm not going to say like, "Go into outsourcing and you don't do it in-house." I'm just saying that you have a higher chance of experiencing that in outsourcing.

It's very strange for me to say that, but yes. In-house, you're going to face different challenges. You're going to maybe also need to do a lot of self-management on different aspects of this because I can only say from the two different experiences I had. In a sense, they were both smallish similar sized studios. It wasn't like my current experiences in like a 500 person studio or something, so I always feel like we're in the kind of intimate space and you talk to the similar number of people. Even so, it was very different. So it was like a really good science experiment. The variables were kind of the same, but you still get two different experiences out of that.

Also, maybe it wasn't as clear in the beginning, but there was also a switch from console to mobile as well. It was a bit deliberate, in a sense, because I felt like it was a good experience to learn a quick turnover in terms of the production itself, like to know everything and be able to touch on everything. It's a bit easier when it's mobile rather than if you go directly to a bigger AAA studio for a console, because you might not be able to get the same experience touching on all the different aspects of it, and getting a better understanding. Definitely, it's really hard to consolidate my opinions on both, but I think I enjoy them in different ways.

[00:52:33] Jasmin: Yes, I think that's very legit to say because they're both different things. It's not about what's better or what's worse really, it's just different experiences, and different work environments, I guess. You can gather the experience from there and apply it to another place, and vice versa. I think that's great that you had both views, in that sense, and then moving on to the future, you know what to expect from both sides, basically.

[00:53:02] Sandra: Yes. I think for sure. If you ever want to open your own studio, maybe with a couple of friends, if that's ideal, I would highly suggest being in both environments is the best thing. I know a lot of people, their main goal is to go to a bigger studio, but you're going to have a really different experience there, I think, and you won't be able to touch on so many things. If your goal is to make your own game, then we kind of need to know what's going on in those other sectors too.

[00:53:42] Ashley: There's thoughts turning around in my head about what you just said just now. I feel like maybe because you don't really see a lot of-- How do you say? Maybe because you don't see-- The artists that you see put on pedestals aren't always outsourcing artists. I think the people that people see as their heroes or whatever, it's like, "Oh, they championed this thing at this in-house- in this in-house environment." I think there's kind of like a misunderstanding as well in terms of what a person should want.

I'm really glad that you mentioned the differences there because, like you said, if you want to work on a bunch of different projects, and help ship a bunch of different things, and grow yourself in different ways, maybe on different projects, then maybe outsourcing is your jam. If you just want to be like a piece of something, and work in a different way, then maybe in-house is better for you, but it's not necessarily like one is better than the other. I think because we hear big name studios all the time, that it can be easy to think that, "Oh, there's only this." When actually, a lot of people help make a game. Come to [crosstalk]-

[00:55:21] Sandra: Like what makes you happy?

[00:55:23] Ashley: Yes.

[00:55:25] Sandra: Now there's a trend of senior artists leaving studios to make a small boutique outsourcing amongst friends. I was starting to feel, "Oh, that sounds cool." First, you work with people you like to work with, you're touching different projects, maybe once in a while, depending. I know there's this view on outsourcing teams. They can be maybe far away and big studios kind of feeling, but it's not. I think our definition of it could change. I also think just any studio that's not where the main studio is. Right?

[00:56:11] Jasmin: Yes.

[00:56:13] Sandra: Yes, for sure.

[00:56:14] Jasmin: That's interesting because right now, basically everyone working from home, it's almost like everyone's a little outsourcing studio, because you're not working in-house anymore.

[laughter]

[00:56:24] Ashley: Yes.

[00:56:25] Sandra: It's true.

[00:56:27] Jasmin: For me, that's [unintelligible 00:56:28]. Awesome.

[00:56:30] Sandra: No, no, I was going to say it's a bit like everyone's freelancing, but in my mind, maybe it's cool when you're freelancing with your friends. Something like that, I guess.

[00:56:40] Jasmin: No, that's true. Yes, it's like basically what you do as friends. Sharing work in progress and getting feedback, you would just do that on a professional level, which would work really well, if you do it with people you trust and value their input. I think that can bring out a really great outsourcing studio. Actually, that'd be a nice idea.

[00:57:01] Ashley: Yes, I know lots of, like you guys were saying, lots of people have-- I see this tweet at least once a month, where people are like, "Can we go to the middle of nowhere and just have a commune, and there's sheets somewhere, and then we also make art?"

[laughter]

[00:57:20] Ashley: I feel like the more that people talk about this idea, I feel like the more that it's going to actually happen. Especially since I think the amount of flexibility that the industry is having to adjust to, because it has to right now, is showing people that you actually don't have to do things the same way forever. Maybe it's giving the right people the encourage to just try to make those things happen. Where it's like, "Yes, I have a studio out in the middle of nowhere, in a Canadian countryside, because that's what I want. That's where it's going to be." That's great. I love that diversity of approach that people are even wanting to begin with.

I think trying to wrap things up, this was so much. In a good way, in a good way. [laughs] Things that stuck out to me from our conversation, stuff like you saying like, "Don't tell yourself no first." That's something that I've heard, but it's good to hear it again because sometimes, that imposter syndrome gets in and infects you, and makes you not want to try things because you're afraid. There's no harm in trying for things. Sometimes not trying is the failure because you didn't even give yourself a chance. That's a really good point that you brought up. Then also, making your career aspirations.

They can come in any form, and just trying to decide to do something that's going to make you happy, rather than feeling the pressure to be in high positions of leadership all the time, or trying to do this certain thing that you think other people think you should do. Just doing what fits you better, [inaudible 00:59:36] me. Thank you so much, Sandra, for coming on. This is such a great conversation to have on episode two, of the All Inclusive podcast. It's still crazy that we're-- The second episode is happening right now. Thank you so much for coming on. I know that you're busy, and you like to have your life and your relaxation and your [inaudible 01:00:09] 7:15 AM.

[01:00:13] Sandra: No, thank you, guys.

[01:00:15] Jasmin: It was amazing to have you on. We're so happy that you made it and took the time to talk with us. I'm sure everyone else will be super excited to listen to you and what you had to say to us. It was great having this conversation.

[01:00:30] Ashley: For sure. We're going to include, in whatever description box this podcast is going to be on, a link to your art station profile, and also a link to your Twitter, so that people can be well aware of your presence.

[01:00:48] Jasmin: If anyone listening right now wants to suggest someone to join us on the podcast, and someone who's a great positive force in their community, along with being a great at what they do, please send us an email at allinclusivepdcst@gmail.com. That's all inclusive, no spaces, pdcst@gmail.com. They can be a 2D artist, a 3D artist, community manager, someone who works in QA, we're really open to having just about anyone to come on. We're super excited to hear your suggestions.

[01:01:19] Ashley: For sure. Send in those suggestions 100%, and thank you all for joining us for the second episode of All Inclusive, we hope that you had as much fun listening to us as we do talking off. You can find us on a couple of different social media channels. You can find these links in the description down below, or the main page of whatever you're listening to us on. You can find us on Twitter, YouTube, SoundCloud, and Spotify, as well as a couple other platforms that we're working on getting the podcasts on. Thank you so much, again, and we hope that you'll join us again for another episode of All Inclusive.

[music]

[01:02:10] [END OF AUDIO]